The M11-D : A Proposal To Leica

[evikne]

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9 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not rushing to defend the M10-D, but sharing my experience:

• Selecting uncoded lenses

I have only one (LTM lens, with Voigtlander adapter), so it isn’t such an issue for me.  In my experience, you can carry out any corrections in post.

• Adjusting time and date

I can’t really see how this is an issue, as I never change the date and time on my cameras, even when I travel to other countries.  There was a way of setting time and date with the function button.  If you use the Fotos App (just once will do for most things), it sets automatically.

• See remaining battery and memory

This flashes up briefly in the OVF when you turn the camera on, and cycles through if you press the function button.  It’s also in the App.

I don’t really see the point of a hidden screen on the M11-D.  This would defeat much of the purpose of the screen-less cameras.

The starting point for me is the M Edition 60, in an M11 body, with the new sensor and processor, battery and fixed baseplate - I quite like the pop-up ISO dial, but would be just as happy to have it on the back, with the on/off switch in a collar around the shutter release.  I also like the thumb-rest.  So, if all other buttons are removed, what to add to what is close to perfection?

I think the point is, what else do you wish to control?

• EVF - this is a useful and painless addition.  If you don’t want it, don’t use it and you will never be aware of the capability.  The little black cover sits on the hotshoe.
  It adds a number of additional options - accurate framing, auto-magnification, movable focus spot and histogram (horizon and geotagging not avaioable).  I also have JPegs set to B&W, so I get a monochromatic image in the EVF
• Fotos App - remote shutter release, exposure metering options, white balance, ISO adjustment, exposure compensation, drive mode, max exposure time, and other camera settings (like JPeg settings, shutdown, formatting SD card etc), and photo review

There’s a lot in there, but the real question is what is essential.  Much of the stuff in the Fotos App, apart from remote release and sometimes photo review, I have used once, then forgot about.

The starting point for me is the M60 - no front button, no thumb-wheel, no D-pad - clean, just like a film M.  After using that for a year or so, what did I really want to add?  Remote exposure (the App is the best solution for this, in my view) and every now and then the EVF, with framing and auto-magnification.  Neither of those require an extra button, as the function button does it all.  Things got a little complicated with controling the movable focus point, but that is hardly necessary.

John

So basically, your solution to all the challenges is the app. That's OK, but my idea was just a suggestion on how to make the camera independent of this app.

I understand that some would see a screenless camera with a hidden screen as a contradiction. But to me, the main point with such a camera is just the experience of a leather covered back, and I don't want to put on a half case that makes it taller and thicker. 

[IkarusJohn]

Sure, it’s a solution. 

But I don’t see the App as a solution to challenges. I’m actually quite happy with it. Could it be better?  Sure. Is it a failure?  Not really. I rather like it. 
 

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[evikne]

56 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Sure, it’s a solution. 

But I don’t see the App as a solution to challenges. I’m actually quite happy with it. Could it be better?  Sure. Is it a failure?  Not really. I rather like it. 

The app is probably the best solution after all. It makes a great team together with the M10-D already, and future camera models and app upgrades will surely make things even better. First of all, it must be possible to manually select an uncoded lens model. This should be an easy thing to fix.

[grahamc]

I like both of these ideas.  A concealed screen in this way would hold a lot of appeal for analogue M fans I’m sure. Thinking about this maybe all screened digital Leica’s should be implemented this way. 

On the other hand I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the 10-D is as close to perfect as one could hope for. 

Why ? I like to have the option to change settings when needed, and same with image review (These ocassions are rare, which I believe to be the intent of the D line, but it is nice that the option is are there ). For this reason (and the size) I prefer the 10-D to the D-262  I used to own.  

So, from my own user perspective, this leaves only the camera>fotos app as the area to be critiqued.  I haven’t really had any meaningful issues with it, especially when you consider it should (perhaps) be used fairly rarely on a D line camera. 

It would be handy for me to be able to set uncoded lenses is about the only improvement I could ask for in practical use

I couldn’t be happier with it.  The only drawbacks are when I mess up an exposure and don’t realise until later. But that’s the point, isn’t it 😁

Edited February 5, 2022 by grahamc

[evikne]

18 minutes ago, grahamc said:

I like both of these ideas.  A concealed screen in this way would hold a lot of appeal for analogue M fans I’m sure. Thinking about this maybe all screened digital Leica’s should be implemented this way. 

On the other hand I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the 10-D is as close to perfect as one could hope for. 

Why ? I like to have the option to change settings when needed, and same with image review (These ocassions are rare, which I believe to be the intent of the D line, but it is nice that the option is are there ). For this reason (and the size) I prefer the 10-D to the D-262  I used to own.  

So, from my own user perspective, this leaves only the camera>fotos app as the area to be critiqued.  I haven’t really had any meaningful issues with it, especially when you consider it should (perhaps) be used fairly rarely on a D line camera. 

It would be handy for me to be able to set uncoded lenses is about the only improvement I could ask for in practical use

I couldn’t be happier with it.  The only drawbacks are when I mess up an exposure and don’t realise until later. But that’s the point, isn’t it 😁

I couldn't agree more.

My next camera will probably be an M11-D. But if they mess it up, I will look for a nicely used M10-D instead. 😉

Edited February 5, 2022 by evikne

[grahamc]

3 minutes ago, evikne said:

I couldn't agree more.

My next camera will probably be an M11-D. If they mess it up, I will look for a nicely used M10-D instead. 😉

That’s a great plan 😁 me too haha 

[sebben]

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The main issue is that it is so slow and unstable to connect to the app. They need to find a better protocol probably the latest Bluetooth for instant connection. 
 

 

[charlesphoto99]

All Leica has to do is sell a branded roll of special black gaffer tape at $200/roll and then Bob's yer uncle, as the Brits say, an instant D. Or perhaps a special flap to attach and then on has their D with hidden display. Same difference. 

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, sebben said:

The main issue is that it is so slow and unstable to connect to the app. They need to find a better protocol probably the latest Bluetooth for instant connection. 
 

 

It’s an issue, for sure - you need to be careful and patient when you’re connecting the App to the M10-D, and the SL and TL2 (not sure if it’s any easier with other models).  Once connected, it’s fine.  The initial connection, you must wait for what seems like ages for the little green light at the back of the camera to stop flshing before you try to join.  As so many Leica cameras use it, I’m sure they’ll improve it

Edited February 5, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[Datsch]

OK, here is the M11-D that I really do want. Everyone was right, not on the 'cheap', but a proper -D ... 😃

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So you will notice that there is no auto-iso. Doesn't bother me ... You could I guess add an 'A' at the far right end of the dial.

You will notice max iso is 6400. Doesn't bother me either. Though there is room on the dial for 12800.

OK, it needs to go down to 64, not 200. That is beyond my photoshop skills, at least for today's quick exercise. Just imagine it for now. A 64 and a 100 added to the left hand side.

Otherwise, all is as my original spec in the first post of this thread.

[EDIT[ Actually, if we're going to have a new ISO dial, how about half stops instead of thirds? That would make much more sense given that speed and aperture are in half stops -- much easier for manual exposure, eg: two clicks wider on the aperture, two clicks down on the ISO, for decreased DOF at same exposure ....

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Datsch

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Datsch said:

OK, here is the M11-D that I really do want. Everyone was right, not on the 'cheap', but a proper -D ... 😃

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

So you will notice that there is no auto-iso. Doesn't bother me ... You could I guess add an 'A' at the far right end of the dial.

You will notice max iso is 6400. Doesn't bother me either. Though there is room on the dial for 12800.

OK, it needs to go down to 64, not 200. That is beyond my photoshop skills, at least for today's quick exercise. Just imagine it for now. A 64 and a 100 added to the left hand side.

Otherwise, all is as my original spec in the first post of this thread.

 

 

 

Where's the faux film winding / thumb-rest lever? That's one of the best things about the M10-D......The ASA dial on the back? That's where it should have been in the first place and the on/off switch where all the other M10's and now the M11 have it.

[Datsch]

7 minutes ago, petermullett said:

Where's the faux film winding / thumb-rest lever? That's one of the best things about the M10-D...

I acknowledge the lever has a lot of fans. Not keen on it myself.

Main issue is though: I don't have a design for a combined lever and on/off switch. Haven't seen anyone draw one either. I suppose the switch sits on top of a disc that is part of the lever surrounding the shutter release But it's beyond my skillset and software to render it photorealistically -- anyone want to have a go?

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Datsch

[Datsch]

Perhaps the combined lever and switch of the M7 could be a starting place:

 

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I remain uncomfortable with all this harking back to film, though.

I don't see the need for a lever.

I don't even see the need for an on/off switch -- something automatic like an eye sensor or a half-press would be more progressive. I notice the more modern M-P has no switch.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Datsch

[T-800]

I'd love to use a M11-D (with the film lever!) with the 35mm APO and Noctilux lenses, therefore I'll need to have at least the external viewfinder on top(without disturbing the film lever) for close focusing distances and definitely some joystick function/arrow keys to move the focus point around, as i like to place subjects off center and recomposing at a shallow depth of field ist just inaccurate, in particular at this quality level.

So yeah, morphing the lcd backscreen for the M11-D into an additional EVF (behind the hot shoe?) would be an amazing solution for me: Leica film camera design with top notch functionality. OVF whenever i want, EVF whenever i need. That would be my dream Leica. And don't make it cheap, I'm willing to give my left kidney. Can i order one á la carte? A piece unique? Make stuff more functional again while having minimalistic, classic design. Like the new thick M1 macbook pros...

Since this is prob too good to happen, just give it the film lever and make the external viewfinder usable (joystick). Black paint (like the M10-R) would be nice and i like the red dot.

Edited March 17, 2022 by T-800

[Alberti]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:24 PM, sebben said:

The main issue is that it is so slow and unstable to connect to the app. They need to find a better protocol probably the latest Bluetooth for instant connection. 

Well, a USB-C port is now an option.

[Alberti]

That red Flash sign on the dial of the film camera is great. What about a shutter selection with this option that analyses the flickerrat 50Hz, 60 Hz or the doubles, and hence adapt the time?

[rtakeoka]

I mainly use M-D 262 since 2016 which is the best digital camera I have ever owned.

I would like to have updated M-D 262 which has:

- SL2-S sensor

- ISO dial on the back (same as M-D 262)

- no thumb lever

- flash sync port

 

 

 

[Linford]

I wouldn’t change anything about the M10-D but the engine—give it the M11 bump and leave it otherwise alone. I’d buy it in a second—though I love my M10-D, rear dial, “THUMB REST” and all.

[fenykepesz]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Linford:

I wouldn’t change anything about the M10-D but the engine—give it the M11 bump and leave it otherwise alone. I’d buy it in a second—though I love my M10-D, rear dial, “THUMB REST” and all.

Linford, which 'engine' do you mean : CPU or sensor - do you include here the M11's new sensor ?

i love my M10-D too - though i would, like you, also go with a new sensor, new CPU, no baseplate - and, importantly, with an on/off power switch located under the shutter button and thumb lever pair.

and then - i am aware, i am touching a holy cow here - some form of hybrid RF/VF/EVF for focus peaking so we can max out lens and sensor performance...

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[Linford]

Yes, sensor, CPU, the works. I’m ambivalent about the power switch. Whatever option makes it financially doable for them. Like the  exposure adjustment where it is. Keep the thumb rest! Lol.