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The M11-D : A Proposal To Leica


Datsch

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On 1/15/2022 at 9:48 PM, Datsch said:

I'm sure you feel you got your fingers burnt with the M10-D, but it was simply too expensive to build to be profitable -- custom exp comp dial, custom on/off/wifi ring, custom fotos programming, custom tooling for the thumb lever -- all  of this is way beyond a normal variant or limited edition which are let's face it is normally just cheap things to alter like leather colour, paint type and so on ...

I doubt the cost of the M10-D's pretend film advance lever and a couple of dials has much impact on the manufacturing cost (let alone the retail price), especially as Leica are leaving out a relatively expensive component, the screen. Their competitors, after all, somehow manage to make entire cameras starting at about 5% of the cost of an M11. Perhaps there is simply not that much demand for a camera that costs this much, but lacks basic facilities like image review? They aren't going to sell a 'minimalist' model cheaper, as that wouldn't fit with the 'less is more' image. They want to give the impression they are selling an exclusive model to the cognoscenti, not an economy version.

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The D model will have all the internal components moved rearwardly by the thickness of the (deleted display).  And, therefore, the lens mount extension also set back to where it is on film Ms.  Thumb wheel and rest removed, the ISO dial located in the center of the back of the camera.  And, a frame illumination window.

Somebody please wake me up from this crazy dream...

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2 minutes ago, Danner said:

The D model will have all the internal components moved rearwardly by the thickness of the (deleted display).  And, therefore, the lens mount extension also set back to where it is on film Ms.  

I think most of the screen sticks out past the body of the M10 & M11. It is not flush like the Q or SL so I don't think there is any space to gain. That might come in the M12.

 

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I might be bias as a MD262 user but to me, the MD262 is probably the biggest "breakthrough" Leica has done in digital M history ever.  

The MD262 was executed brilliantly because it was based on a cut down version of M240 - the M262. The M262 doesn't have much bells and whistles to start with anyway.

To be honest, I feel that M10-D has already diluted the original MD262/M60 concept. It is inevitable because there are just too many modern features (WIFI, apps connections etc) the standard M10 already has and Leica probably didn't want to loose those functionalities in the M10-D. Unfortunately, the WIFI connection and the associated apps functions etc make the M10-D "less pure" as compare to the MD262 in terms of overall user experience. 

Now, the M11 has even more extra features (variable resolution, internal/external file storage options, electronic shutter etc), if the M11-D continues on a similar path as the M10-D (i.e. WIFI connections and apps based options/functions) the user experience will probably be further diluted from the original MD262 to a point where people would question why both with a M11-D at all. Please allow me to explain, imagine the future M11-D, the apps would now have pages and pages of settings for you to fiddle with, plus probably there will be improvements in the photos preview/auto download speed,  you would probably end up using the apps more frequently to check the photos, confirm exposure after a series of shots or change the camera settings. However, instead of using a rear LCD, you are using an app on your phone LOL

For the M11-D, I really hope Leica would go hardcore again and ditch all wireless connectivity and apps functions, and use only the USB-C cable connection to a computer/phone/tablet to change the settings. That's all you need anyway for a D, isn't? 

The MD262/M60 original concept was never meant for the mass, it was a niche within a niche aiming to provide a completely different shooting experience. This should not be forgotten. 

Edited by nolove
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The ISO dial should be on the back and have all ISO values directly selectable. The power switch belongs to where it is on other digital Ms or on the M7, i.e. around the base of the shutter release. The ISO knob could be changed to a selector of customizable user profiles,  configured over Bluetooth.

And for the retro feeling, a working frameline illumination window, a fake wind lever and a fake or, preferably, real removable baseplate.

If there had been enough space in the body, which there isn't, the alternative could have been a hinged back like on film Ms, with the LCD and maybe some buttons hidden behind it. So you could still chimp when you think nobody is watching you 🙂

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19 hours ago, Datsch said:

By cheap I mean effective and profitable. I think they over-thought the M10-D and did indeed give it 'all the things'. I don't think all the things is what the -D concept is about though. More 'hardly any of the things' …

 

Well, here’s the thing - I bought the M Edition 60 when it was released, much to the scorn of many here.  At first, I asked if Leica could make one with a threaded shutter release so I could use a cable release (tripod user), which Leica agreed to do for me.  Then, I thought it would spoil the design and relented.

I used the M60 as my main camera for a year or so, and I found a couple of things - I did want a remote release mechanism; there were times I did want to change some settings and there were times the ability to use the EVF would have been nice.  Without those things, the camera was limited to almost snapshot use.  Also, I’m not so much of a 35mm user - the 35 Summilux FLE in stainless steel is a fabulous lens, and looked great on the camera, but I would have preferred a 28 Summilux.

So, when the M10 was released, I asked Leica if they were making an M-D version - an M10, stripped back like the M60, but with the option (only the option) of WiFi and EVF (when needed).  Leica was receptive (they’d been planning for this, I guess) and we got into a long discussion about how to move the focus point and the spot for metering when using the EVF - joystick, D-button etc.

I had been hoping for a stripped back M60 style body, but with the ability to use the Fotos App and EVF when needed - what we got was the thumb wheel, front button and top button from the standard M10.  At that point, I realised that for the likely numbers ordered, Leica had to use the existing M10 body with as few changes as possible.  I do like the thumb rest, I’d have to say.

In an ideal world, I’d love it if Leica made an M11-D, with a traditional ISO dial on the back, no thumb wheel, no top button, no front button, on/off switch (with WiFi setting) on a collar around the shutter release and otherwise completely clean.  I would still like the camera to have compatibility with the EVF and WiFi, but they would be non-intrusive options.  I don’t think moving the focus or spot metering point is critical - that could be done from the Fotos App.

I probably couldn’t afford it, so I will live with what I have!

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I AGREE AN M11-D is nice, and that because with wide-angles it is easy to shoot.

I have heard several stories where owners thought the body backfocussed with a e.g. 50Lux: why, well because they were sent back. 
i like “M11-D, with a traditional ISO dial on the back” but then it should be the method used too in the old camera’s with the identification of the type of colour film the iso dial being like it is on the standard body. This allows a simple way to change default colour temp.

I think any moving of the area or spot metering point manually is weird. I hate that ‘feature’ on my other body. It runs counter to the way rangefinder shoooters work. We know where the patch  is. We know the lightmeter area is slightly below that. Move the camera and hold your thumb. [that is the current option I use in my M240]

Edited by Alberti
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1 minute ago, Alberti said:

… I think any moving of the area or spot metering point manually is weird. I hate that ‘feature’ on my other body. It runs counter to the way rangefinder shoooters work. We know where the patch  is. We know the lightmeter area is slightly below that. Move the camera and hold your thumb. [that is the current option I use in my M240]

And in that case, you don’t move it.

Look at this another way - many say, you don’t like the LCD, don’t use it.  But what I suggested above is an M camera with no buttons (other than the shutter and lens release), as opposed to the M10-D with the front button, top deck button and thumb wheel.

As to focus and recompose, well we’ll have to differ on that one.  I can and have lived with the centre-weighted metering.

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8 hours ago, Anbaric said:

...Perhaps there is simply not that much demand for a camera that costs this much, but lacks basic facilities like image review?...

...They aren't going to sell a 'minimalist' model cheaper, as that wouldn't fit with the 'less is more' image...

...They want to give the impression they are selling an exclusive model to the cognoscenti, not an economy version...

Taking your points in order;

There isn't much demand for a screen-less D; we know that. We've seen the scenario played-out with both the M-D Typ-262 (c. 1500 units) and M10-D (c.2100 units?) versions.

Cost-per-unit for the D models is commensurately higher as the cost of manufacturing changes required (tooling/software etc.) are spread over a smaller production run.

There's no "impression" about it; they are selling an exclusive model to the cognoscenti...

:)

Anyhow; as I've said elsewhere; bring out a camera with the basic controls of the M-D Typ-262 fitted in the body-thickness of the M10 and with the sensor from the M10-R.

Or else just bring back the M-D Typ-262 exactly as it was...but this time with black-anodised hot-shoe rails...

Philip.

Edited by pippy
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You know Leica always say IBIS is not possible because of lack of space inside the M digital body.

Now a crazy thought, since I suspect it is quite unlikely for the M11-D to go back to the original MD262/M60 completely strip down concept anymore (see my post above). How about revolution of the D model concept instead? My suggestions:

  1. With the lack of LCD and associated hardware, there might be finally enough room for IBIS. 
  2. Retain the external EVF option for photo review (if really needed), critical focus and camera settings. Plus the usual functions via wireless connection to Leica Fotos app as per M10-D. 

What I am suggesting is basically a complete re-think of the need of LCD on a digital M. Don't you think the LCD on the M10/M11 is getting out of proportion with the limited real estate available on the rear of an M? The large LCD forces the D pad so far right (as compare to the M9) and the 3 buttons on the left are the main culprit for compromised handling. This is also one of the reasons MD/M10-D users like myself feel so much more comfortable using a MD or M10-D as compare to the standard digital M.

 

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1 hour ago, nolove said:

Don't you think the LCD on the M10/M11 is getting out of proportion with the limited real estate available on the rear of an M? The large LCD forces the D pad so far right (as compare to the M9) and the 3 buttons on the left are the main culprit for compromised handling. This is also one of the reasons MD/M10-D users like myself feel so much more comfortable using a MD or M10-D as compare to the standard digital M.

You hit the nail on the head here. Thumb space is the main reason I enjoy the M-D so much. I have been keeping a few broken cameras of various brands with a view to photographing them and showing this evolution -- the screen grows and thumbspace shrinks. My old Nikon D300 has more thumbspace than a D850, my ancient little Canon Ixus has a 1.5" screen, leaving room for  my hefty mitts and even a tiny OVF (which incidentally zooms in and out to match the lens zoom).

The SL2 clawed back a lot of thumb space by ditching the D pad entirely, kudos to Leica for that. I was hoping that the M11 would do the same, relying on a joystick or touch screen instead.

Edited by Datsch
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  • 3 weeks later...

I think the only drawback with the current M10-D, is the cumbersome WiFi connection. Except from that, it's still the most perfect M in my eyes.

Without a screen, there are a few challenges:

  • Selecting uncoded lenses
  • Adjusting time and date
  • See remaining battery and memory

And maybe some other things that I forgot. If we need a screen for these things, we could of course also use it to review pictures, but that’s not first priority, it comes far down on my list.

Bluetooth is perhaps a better alternative to WiFi, but the very best would be if the camera was completely independent of an external screen.

So what if the camera had a small screen hidden under a door, disguised as the pressure plate door on an analog M? It would look and feel exactly like a classic film M, but still have all the benefits of a modern, digital camera when needed.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The door could easily hide a small LCD screen and a few buttons.

Externally it would be more similar to the classic film M than the current M10-D and the M-D Typ 262.

What do you think?

 

Edited by evikne
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11 hours ago, evikne said:

I think the only drawback with the current M10-D, is the cumbersome WiFi connection. Except from that, it's still the most perfect M in my eyes.

Without a screen, there are a few challenges:

  • Selecting uncoded lenses
  • Adjusting time and date
  • See remaining battery and memory

And maybe some other things that I forgot. If we need a screen for these things, we could of course also use it to review pictures, but that’s not first priority, it comes far down on my list.

Bluetooth is perhaps a better alternative to WiFi, but the very best would be if the camera was completely independent of an external screen.

So what if the camera had a small screen hidden under a door, disguised as the pressure plate door on an analog M? It would look and feel exactly like a classic film M, but still have all the benefits of a modern, digital camera when needed.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The door could easily hide a small LCD screen and a few buttons.

Externally it would be more similar to the classic film M than the current M10-D and the M-D Typ 262.

What do you think?

 

Not rushing to defend the M10-D, but sharing my experience:

  • Selecting uncoded lenses

I have only one (LTM lens, with Voigtlander adapter), so it isn’t such an issue for me.  In my experience, you can carry out any corrections in post.

  • Adjusting time and date

I can’t really see how this is an issue, as I never change the date and time on my cameras, even when I travel to other countries.  There was a way of setting time and date with the function button.  If you use the Fotos App (just once will do for most things), it sets automatically.

  • See remaining battery and memory

This flashes up briefly in the OVF when you turn the camera on, and cycles through if you press the function button.  It’s also in the App.

I don’t really see the point of a hidden screen on the M11-D.  This would defeat much of the purpose of the screen-less cameras.

The starting point for me is the M Edition 60, in an M11 body, with the new sensor and processor, battery and fixed baseplate - I quite like the pop-up ISO dial, but would be just as happy to have it on the back, with the on/off switch in a collar around the shutter release.  I also like the thumb-rest.  So, if all other buttons are removed, what to add to what is close to perfection?

I think the point is, what else do you wish to control?

  • EVF - this is a useful and painless addition.  If you don’t want it, don’t use it and you will never be aware of the capability.  The little black cover sits on the hotshoe.
    It adds a number of additional options - accurate framing, auto-magnification, movable focus spot and histogram (horizon and geotagging not avaioable).  I also have JPegs set to B&W, so I get a monochromatic image in the EVF
  • Fotos App - remote shutter release, exposure metering options, white balance, ISO adjustment, exposure compensation, drive mode, max exposure time, and other camera settings (like JPeg settings, shutdown, formatting SD card etc), and photo review

There’s a lot in there, but the real question is what is essential.  Much of the stuff in the Fotos App, apart from remote release and sometimes photo review, I have used once, then forgot about.

The starting point for me is the M60 - no front button, no thumb-wheel, no D-pad - clean, just like a film M.  After using that for a year or so, what did I really want to add?  Remote exposure (the App is the best solution for this, in my view) and every now and then the EVF, with framing and auto-magnification.  Neither of those require an extra button, as the function button does it all.  Things got a little complicated with controling the movable focus point, but that is hardly necessary.

John

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