¿Who makes the M11 sensor

[Fred Miranda]

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On 1/15/2022 at 6:53 AM, SrMi said:

Likely the same as in fp-l and a7riv.

IMO, it is very likely that it is Sony’s sensor, but it is still only speculation.

It's clear that the sensor is from Sony. However, it has been modified to meet Leica’s specifications. For instance, the sensor uses dynamic range differently, which allows for an ISO 64 setting.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, Fred Miranda said:

It's clear that the sensor is from Sony. However, it has been modified to meet Leica’s specifications. For instance, the sensor uses dynamic range differently, which allows for an ISO 64 setting.

The dynamic range characteristics are not part of the sensor itself. Whatever sensor is used, Leica may have created custom CFA, added thinner filters, and likely processes DNs differently.

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[hdmesa]

21 hours ago, SrMi said:

The dynamic range characteristics are not part of the sensor itself. Whatever sensor is used, Leica may have created custom CFA, added thinner filters, and likely processes DNs differently.

Changing the base ISO and the dual range ISO number shifting downward the same number of stops to match is not just a simple matter of treating the same sensor differently, is it? Otherwise we could change the true base ISO on the fly with the in-camera menu.

I think it's fair to assume the M11 sensor is a variant of the Sony sensor shared with the SL3, Q3, A7RIV/V, GFX 100, X2D, fp L, etc. You just have to match up resolution and pixel pitch with the available sensors, and there are no other sensors that it could be. If it were not this same base Sony sensor design, the pixel pitch and resolution would likely be slightly different.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Changing the base ISO and the dual range ISO number shifting downward the same number of stops to match is not just a simple matter of treating the same sensor differently, is it? Otherwise we could change the true base ISO on the fly with the in-camera menu.

I think it's fair to assume the M11 sensor is a variant of the Sony sensor shared with the SL3, Q3, A7RIV/V, GFX 100, X2D, fp L, etc. You just have to match up resolution and pixel pitch with the available sensors, and there are no other sensors that it could be. If it were not this same base Sony sensor design, the pixel pitch and resolution would likely be slightly different.

The DCG point may be embedded in the sensor itself.

The base ISO is the value at which the sensor receives maximum exposure. The manufacturer can specify the number somewhat at will (ISO 100 does not mean the same across cameras). What determines the base ISO is an interesting question, and I do not remember/know the answer. I do not believe that the M11 sensor's maximum charge differs from the a7rV. M11's ISO 64 may allow larger exposures but does not produce more DR than a7rV at ISO 100. Has anyone done any tests? I hope to learn more about the topic and circle back at some point.

Edited August 4 by SrMi

[hdmesa]

13 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The DCG point may be embedded in the sensor itself.

The base ISO is the value at which the sensor receives maximum exposure. The manufacturer can specify the number somewhat at will (ISO 100 does not mean the same across cameras). What determines the base ISO is an interesting question, and I do not remember/know the answer. I do not believe that the M11 sensor's maximum charge differs from the a7rV. M11's ISO 64 may allow larger exposures but does not produce more DR than a7rV at ISO 100. Has anyone done any tests? I hope to learn more about the topic and circle back at some point.

P2P shows a slight DR advantage to the M11 over the A7R5 at their respective base ISOs. This is what I’d expect to see, a small improvement since it’s a small decrease in base ISO.

However base ISO is set, it has to be in hardware since shooting below base will degrade highlight DR. Of course that doesn’t mean the hardware is on the sensor, perhaps it’s the circuitry around it, IDK either.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Sony ILCE-7RM5

M11 in blue / A7R5 in black

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[SrMi]

57 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

P2P shows a slight DR advantage to the M11 over the A7R5 at their respective base ISOs. This is what I’d expect to see, a small improvement since it’s a small decrease in base ISO.

However base ISO is set, it has to be in hardware since shooting below base will degrade highlight DR. Of course that doesn’t mean the hardware is on the sensor, perhaps it’s the circuitry around it, IDK either.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M11,Sony ILCE-7RM5

M11 in blue / A7R5 in black

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Anything below 1/3 or 1/4 of difference belongs to difference that can be attributed to measurement tolerances and is irrelevant.

[hdmesa]

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6 hours ago, SrMi said:

Anything below 1/3 or 1/4 of difference belongs to difference that can be attributed to measurement tolerances and is irrelevant.

Can be attributed but not should be attributed. It's not irrelevant any more than the change shown between ISO 100 and 200, etc.. If DR was changing less predictably, then I might agree.

Edit to add: I would agree that such a small difference in DR (if accurate) is "irrelevant" with regard to having a discernible impact on IQ.

Edited August 5 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

35 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Can be attributed but not should be attributed. It's not irrelevant any more than the change shown between ISO 100 and 200, etc.. If DR was changing less predictably, then I might agree.

Edit to add: I would agree that such a small difference in DR (if accurate) is "irrelevant" with regard to having a discernible impact on IQ.

There is a difference when you have measurement for a single camera by a single individual. Bill said on DPR that very small differences between cameras can be due to measurement tolerances.

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

There is a difference when you have measurement for a single camera by a single individual. Bill said on DPR that very small differences between cameras can be due to measurement tolerances.

So you’re saying the entire plot for the M11 and A7R5 could be too high or low due to margin or error? I could see that, but it also means they could diverge in opposite directions.

All I am saying is that if you trust the full plots for both, I don’t see why you would disregard the comparison only at base ISO. 

Edited August 5 by hdmesa

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

So you’re saying the entire plot for the M11 and A7R5 could be too high or low due to margin or error? I could see that, but it also means they could diverge in opposite directions.

All I am saying is that if you trust the full plots for both, I don’t see why you would disregard the comparison only at base ISO. 

The PDR graphs have a small margin od error that is not relevant in practice. If camera A has 11.5 and camera B has 11.4, you should not assume that camera A has better max PDR even if there were no margin of error. If the difference is higher then, let’s say .3, then you can assume that one camera has more max PDR, though in practice it does not matter. 
I am always miffed 😁 when people claim that camera A is better than camera B because of a difference of .1 in max PDR.

Also remember that ISOs are not calibrated, so the graphs may need to move left or right for “proper” comparison.

That is what I know about the topic.

[jaapv]

On 1/15/2022 at 6:45 PM, Chaemono said:

I agree. If it’s hardware binning than the sensor is probably not a different version of the one in α7R IV. It’s unlikely Sony Semicon would be allowed to sell newer tech than what is in Sony cameras to competitors. 

It would not be the first time. Nikon used to be known to use Sony sensors but they outperformed Sony cameras regarding noise.