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Time to face the sensor problem


lburn
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4 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I'm guilty of the shutter criticism. But I also don't think the colour digital M cameras offer anything in terms of image quality that outperforms any other modern full frame digital. I currently have three M cameras and another on the way, I obviously love them, but I'm not kidding myself here. It's not about the end result. 

So I'm not in it for the image quality, I'm in it for the experience of taking the photograph with a rangefinder camera and using the manual lenses. I enjoy the process of taking a photograph with the M.      Anything that takes away from how pleasant that experience is, is a step backwards IMO. 

Don't get me wrong I want the best image quality I can get out of the M system, hence why I'm trying out the M11... but I don't want any of the extra image quality to come at the expense of a pleasing user experience. How the camera 'feels' is completely subjective I know, so time will tell whether I keep it or not. The M10 is a perfectly good camera if the M11 feels wrong. 

Since my first Leica, an M8, I always felt there was something special in files produced by Leica camera and lenses. The reason why I am shooting Leica is the end result.

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7 hours ago, lburn said:

Presumably everyone who buys the M11 will want to use it at full resolution (60MP) at least some of the time.  And they will do so because they want the best possible detail in their image.  So they will not want the image downgraded by camera shake.  After all what is the point of a high resolution photo which isn’t sharp? So, given that Leica, contrary to every other high resolution 35mm camera manufacturer in the current market, has chosen to omit putting a stabilised sensor in the camera, how can this problem be avoided?  Well, you can downgrade the resolution as Leica has helpfully enabled you to do.  But then there is no high res image anymore.  You can raise the ISO until it is so high that the shutter speed is very fast. But then the image is downgraded. You can stop using fast or longer lenses.  But that is one of the strengths and great pleasures of the M camera. You can buy a sturdy tripod.  That will solve the problem. Use the M11 on a good tripod.  But then the whole idea of the M camera, fast and compact, rather goes out of the window. So is the M11 a flawed concept in its current form? Do all the owners of Sony, Nikon, Cannon etc high res 35 m cameras all go round with image stabilisation turned off?  No.  Why not? Because they need it to get consistently sharp high res images.  I suggest so does the M11.  Surprisingly, at least to me, two of leading reviews out so far, Jono Slack and Sean Reid, do not even mention this topic.  

http://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/

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3 hours ago, dkmoore said:

Wrong. There is blur with M10R below 1/90 if you aren’t super mindful.

That hasn't been my experience. I've been using the R the same way I used my previous M digital cameras, and film cameras before that. I typically find 1/15 with a 35mm lens to be my floor as long as I do my part.

There is some truth to blur with large MP sensors, but I haven't really seen it in my M10-R. However, I have seen it while shooting pro sports with a Canon R5 and Sony A9II. I usually use a Canon R5 with a 400 f2.8 for NFL football and MLB baseball. Recently I had to borrow a Sony with a 400 f2.8 for football and I found that I wasn't stopping motion at 1/1000, which has traditionally been the minimum for sports. I found that I had to shoot at a minimum of 1/2000 or I lost a lot a frames to lack of sharpness. It was more noticeable with the Sony than it was with the Canon R5. Both cameras have built in IBIS.

Apples and oranges I know. But I'm not ready to condemn the M11 until I try it.

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2 hours ago, Sailronin said:

I've shot with medium format digital since a Phase One P30 on a Hasselblad 501CM. The first thing I discovered was that the 30mp digital back picked up vibrations which were "buried" in the grain of film (color or B&W).  To make truly sharp images required a shutter speed of 3x focal length if hand held and using mirror lock up on a tripod...all the time.  I sold the P30 for a CFV50 which was even more sensitive. Currently I have a Leaf Aptus 75s (33mp) and Hasselblad 907x with CFV50c ii, I use all of them both in the studio and mostly in the field but vibration remains an issue, so yes, 60 mp in an M body with no IBIS will be a challenge in the real world.  Not sayin' it will be impossible to hand hold but know there will be A LOT of fuzzy images over the learning curve. Being mirrorless the M11 will be better than a HB500 series or the S(006) but it will take some practice.

 

Concur with the above. I agree that a high megapixel camera needs a good technique to operate. Proper shutter speed is a part of it.  I am just saying that one can operate a high megapixel camera without stabilization. 

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I remember when I shot film with My M6, usually ISO50 or 64, and 400 if light was low.

While I would welcome IBIS on one side, I almost never miss it on the other side. I assume that the body of the M doesn't have enough space.

I use the M in the wide-angle to normal range, I have fast lenses, ISO today works well up to 6400 ISO, so far I did not run in to any problems.

On the SL2 I use it, just because its there. I think it is much more important for longer focal lengths to have stabilized. But I don't use longer focal lengths on the M. 

I also shot the x1d and the Leica S handheld often. Works.

 

Edited by tom0511
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5 hours ago, adan said:

For Sailronin: True, but a 500-series Hasselblad firing is like a collision between two semis. ;)

I never use anything but 1/500th hand-held, even on gritty Tri-X. And even with the Distagon 40 wide-angle (which I swapped for an SWC - no mirror slap).

I've never found handholding a Hasselblad an issue ; the thunderclap is mainly the auxiliary shutter over the film magazine which is a balanced action and can be pre-released along with the mirror if there is any doubt.

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9 hours ago, michali said:

Surely using the M11 electronic shutter as & when required, would to a large extent negate blur, be it the result of shutter slap or some other reason. 

An electronic shutter cannot mitigate camera shake; only the shutter shock can be eliminated.

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13 hours ago, dkmoore said:

Wrong. There is blur with M10R below 1/90 if you aren’t super mindful. 
 

my M11 arrives tomorrow but ive heard from numerous sources the same issue doesn’t exist. 

The shutter speed at which blur occurs depends on the photographer and the focal length used. Also, the blur does not happen suddenly, but the probability for blur starts increasing. Another possibility to mitigate motion blur is to shoot a sequence. If the chance of a sharp image drops to 30%, shoot three photos in a series. One of them should have no motion blur. 

Edited by SrMi
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17 hours ago, M Journey said:

The photos shown in reviews from Jono, Elmar, and Dave at reddotforum are fantastic and I doubt many, if any were taken using a tripod.  With practice, and great technique, I’m sure most/all m11 shooters can get picture that are just as sharp and free of blur.  Composition and photographic vision?  That’s up to the shooter and no amount of IBIS will make a difference there…

The capabilities you choose will help a lot: choose the electronic shutter/black curtain and most of the shake is gone (I can’t ask Steven 🤐 ) but we exchanged a post on it. He really advocated the latter. He understands. 🤐

On my S5 I have blur if I choose Mech. Not just the shutter shock, also the movement of the hand.  Electr. solves the issue totally. I expect the same with the M11.

On my M8 I had a lot of blur - wobbling due to camera movement to the shutter. Depressing. It was. Really. 🤐

On my M-Monochrome I have no motion blur - the discrete option is great. On my M240 all goes fine too (but I forgot how I installed that).

My impression is that IBIS does not solve all problems.

Edited by Alberti
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14 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I'm guilty of the shutter criticism. But I also don't think the colour digital M cameras offer anything in terms of image quality that outperforms any other modern full frame digital. I currently have three M cameras and another on the way, I obviously love them, but I'm not kidding myself here. It's not about the end result. 

So I'm not in it for the image quality, I'm in it for the experience of taking the photograph with a rangefinder camera and using the manual lenses. I enjoy the process of taking a photograph with the M.      Anything that takes away from how pleasant that experience is, is a step backwards IMO. 

Don't get me wrong I want the best image quality I can get out of the M system, hence why I'm trying out the M11... but I don't want any of the extra image quality to come at the expense of a pleasing user experience. How the camera 'feels' is completely subjective I know, so time will tell whether I keep it or not. The M10 is a perfectly good camera if the M11 feels wrong. 

Good point. The shooting experience is also partly why I bought a used Leica M10 last fall. I went this route after rediscovering the joys of black and white film shooting over the summer. Having shot for a long time Nikon DSLR full frame (and I have kept the Nikon for telephoto work), the combination of The Leica M10 and the 50 Summilux Aspherical is markedly better when it comes to color and micro-contrast (or whatever what one wants to call it). Not that the Nikon was bad at all, it was excellent, but the M10+Summilux is better (and my family immediately saw the difference, so it's not just buyer's bias). But the shooting experience for me is less in the sound (although I like the sound of The M10 so much more than the Nikon DSLR sound) than in the fixed, manual focus aspect of the experience. But the shutter is important too. That said, it seems the shutter sound on the M11 is not any worse than the M10 which I love. So, if I had any money left I would consider the M11 although for me, the 60 megapixels is a drawback. I would rather have a 24 or 33 MB that is a low light beast, as I shoot at dawn or dusk quite a bit.

One I have a hard time getting worked up by is startup time, as I leave my M10 on (with its so-so battery) all the time one I start a shoot. Waking up is a little slow but I am typically not often on sleep mode. I still get 400 to 500 shots on a single battery (I don't chimp much and don't have the EVF). So, a single spare battery and I can call it a day.

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10 hours ago, frame-it said:

If we can hand hold a 150mp camera and get sharp, clear images we should be able to do the same with the 60mp M 11 if we use focal length X2 for our minimum hand held shutter speed - or focal length X3. 

Or we could try using a monopod.  Just a suggestion...

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2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

If we can hand hold a 150mp camera and get sharp, clear images we should be able to do the same with the 60mp M 11 if we use focal length X2 for our minimum hand held shutter speed - or focal length X3. 

Or we could try using a monopod.  Just a suggestion...

Or we could be using  a flash. Just another suggestion. 😀

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As adan and others have pointed out, 61mp is not a huge jump; less than a 2x linear magnification from the M9's 18mp. It was quite possible to make sharp photos with the M9, so now with the M11 just raise the ISO one stop higher and the shutter speed one stop higher and you're good. It's not a big deal and certainly doesn't indicate any design deficiency in the M11.

That said, I too would like IBIS in an M model. In the 90's I switched from Nikon to Canon for my SLR needs, and Canon's image stabilization, although based on lens stabilization as Sony's had been, was one factor. A 100-400 acceptable quality zoom with stabilization was a game changer! I've had stabilized cameras and lenses ever since. Some of the best implementations are in the Olympus EM-1 models with lenses such as the 12-100 zoom, or the Panasonic G9 with the 100-400 zoom which I could shoot handheld at 800mm equivalent angle of view from a zodiac in the Antarctic. My full frame camera/lens combinations have not managed that in practice, but they're getting close.

Leica M's are different. The shooting experience depends on handling, direct viewing with practiced rangefinder focussing and muscle memory . The forays into different body configurations, such as the M5 and the M240 didn't survive because they went in wrong directions, not because shooters were necessarily hidebound. The problem with IBIS systems at present is that they're too thick. Just look at where the sensor plane is in relation to the back of the screen on cameras that have IBIS. Now imagine that thickness back of the sensor plane in an M camera. If the lens mount were kept in the same position to the front of the body as now, the camera would be 6mm or more thicker. THAT would make me give up M's. The only other solution would be to move the sensor forward in the body, which would entail moving the lens mount forward the required 6+mm. I'm not sure how that would work with the view/rangefinder, but it would certainly introduce problems.

Then again, some new, innovative IBIS system that is very thin might be developed and IBIS could be introduced in the M12 which wouldn't  force the body to become bloated. Just right now, there is no neat solution, so we have an M11 that doesn't have IBIS and where you might have to bump the ISO and shutter speeds one stop, or less than 1/2 stop from that of my M10M, which has ISO range to spare.

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On 1/15/2022 at 12:30 PM, adan said:

In short, one could be worried about moving from 24 or 40 Mpixels to 240 or 400 Mpixels. Probably.

But moving from 40 to 60 Mpixels will need more like 1.2x the shutter speed/ISO/aperture. Moving from 24 to 60 will be 1.6x (ISO 200 to ISO 320; 1/125th > 1/200th sec.)

A good discussion in this thread in the end. Thanks especially to Adan for this really useful discussion, and putting the resolution jumps into perspective. Much appreciated. 

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Am 15.1.2022 um 02:11 schrieb M Journey:

IBIS would be an awesome feature, and it would be a day 1 upgrade for me when they finally add it to a M body.  Not having IBIS doesn't make the 60mp of the m11 a negative though. It would have been better with IBIS, but it isn't there, so it is what it is.  I look forward to taking my m11 out and learning how to shoot with it and get better.  I'm not sure when I'll pick up Nikon Z again...I suppose its when I need to shoot something that my 35mm (only 1 Leica lens so far) can't handle.  

Maybe Leica didn't want to shake up the M world too much at once and risk completely alienating their purists. 

Just take your Nikon Z7 (thin cover glas) together with an adapter and you have IBIS plus buildt in EVF which allows to focus even telephoto and fast lenses accuratly. I do so with 6 M lenses, all work fine. I got tired sending the M to Leica for readjusting the rangefinder.

Even with tele lenses and fast lenses (summilux) focussing works fine with all my film M cameras, but digital makes an EVF necessary. Not for nothing does leica offer an EVF from day one. But the EVF imposed to the M looks strange. I don't like the look. A camera of at this price tag  should be capable of accurate focussing with all M-lenses without additional aid.

Why didn't Leica make use of the sensor by integrating phase-detection to assist manual focusing, e.g. in the center of the sensor and visualized the focus direction by two arrows mirrored in the rangefinder, like the M6 does for exposure metering.

So I wait for M12 and continue using my Z7.

 

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The cropped smaller files are only for use with live-view or EVF. The regular optical viewfinder framelines are completely irrelevant.

The launch firmware already provides for cropping lines in the EVF, or on the LCD, for 1.3x or 1.8x crops - with any lens (since the EVF/LV show the FoV of the lens in use at any time)

Think "Leica Q2."

A 28mm lens will give

28mm - 36mm (1.3x) - 50mm (1.8x) - close enough to 28-35-50

A 21mm lens will give

21mm - 27.3 (1.3x) - 38mm (1.8x) - close enough to 21-28-35 (or 40 - take your pick)

A 75mm lens will give

75 - 98m (1.3x) - 135 (1.8x) - close enough to 75-100-135.

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