Time to face the sensor problem

[lburn]

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Presumably everyone who buys the M11 will want to use it at full resolution (60MP) at least some of the time.  And they will do so because they want the best possible detail in their image.  So they will not want the image downgraded by camera shake.  After all what is the point of a high resolution photo which isn’t sharp? So, given that Leica, contrary to every other high resolution 35mm camera manufacturer in the current market, has chosen to omit putting a stabilised sensor in the camera, how can this problem be avoided?  Well, you can downgrade the resolution as Leica has helpfully enabled you to do.  But then there is no high res image anymore.  You can raise the ISO until it is so high that the shutter speed is very fast. But then the image is downgraded. You can stop using fast or longer lenses.  But that is one of the strengths and great pleasures of the M camera. You can buy a sturdy tripod.  That will solve the problem. Use the M11 on a good tripod.  But then the whole idea of the M camera, fast and compact, rather goes out of the window. So is the M11 a flawed concept in its current form? Do all the owners of Sony, Nikon, Cannon etc high res 35 m cameras all go round with image stabilisation turned off?  No.  Why not? Because they need it to get consistently sharp high res images.  I suggest so does the M11.  Surprisingly, at least to me, two of leading reviews out so far, Jono Slack and Sean Reid, do not even mention this topic.  

[Al Brown]

14 minutes ago, lburn said:

You can stop using fast or longer lenses.  But that is one of the strengths and great pleasures of the M camera.

Why would you stop using FAST lenses? They enable short shutter speeds al low ISO. Also, using longer lenses was NEVER a strength nor a pleasur of M cameras.

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[mmradman]

Maximum utilisation of high MP sensor at low ISO, thus providing top quality, will probably be addressed in next generation of M cameras - offer IBIS.

Permanent open sensor mode makes M11’s no different than any other mirrorless camera including Leica’s own SL line, M11’s is essentially that plus optical RF.  Ignoring optional EVF for a moment the optical RF makes it difficult to precisely focus fast lens that is slightly off tolerance or user eyesight not perfect.

Even electronic shutter with slow readout is dated for premium model camera, market leaders do faster than 1/200 sec. I wonder what is EVF latency, better than M10?

M11 is nice camera but I’ll pass for above reasons.

Edited January 14, 2022 by mmradman
Added ref to ibis

[setuporg]

It’s about time this myth of blurry high MP images is debunked.  Kind of M10-R usage in the wild simply does not support it.  Ask Steven who was swearing on his M10-P he’ll never succumb to the blur of R, then one day he sings Osanna to his M10-RBP, and no mention of the blur.

if we can do it at 40, we can do it at 60.  60 is the new 40!:)

[SrMi]

Getting the M11 does not mean that I will print larger than I did with M10R.

[Crem]

M10R owner here who normally never shoots over ISO 6400 (usually avoid above 3200 if I can). Two of the features I most wish I had in my M10R are lower base ISO for f1.4 lenses and better high ISO (6400 - 12800 range).  The M11 has both. I don't plan on buying the camera anytime soon, but when I do it will be for these two features. You should have no problems preventing blur by boosting your shutter speed a bit and you have the high ISO to do it with this camera.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Crem

[M Journey]

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The photos shown in reviews from Jono, Elmar, and Dave at reddotforum are fantastic and I doubt many, if any were taken using a tripod.  With practice, and great technique, I’m sure most/all m11 shooters can get picture that are just as sharp and free of blur.  Composition and photographic vision?  That’s up to the shooter and no amount of IBIS will make a difference there…

[Stevejack]

If you make a good photograph, no-one is going to care that you trembled a little and softened the image while taking it. No-one. Just like no-one will care if you bump up the ISO one extra stop and add a little noise. 

You won't lose any competitions, people won't stop buying your work, and I can guarantee you that the only person worried about it will be the person who took the shot. I'm saying this as a gear-head, I love my tech and IBIS is great. I love a sharp image as much as the next person but it doesn't make the image. 

Yes Leica should add IBIS at the earliest possible point. I'll turn it off a lot of the time, as I do know on my other mirrorless cameras - but I think it's an important feature that should be there for when the shooter deems it useful.

When Leica finally DOES add IBIS, there will be all the arguments about how it softens the image at fast shutter speeds. Just take good pictures, with any camera, and it will all be ok.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Stevejack

[setuporg]

I’ve seen a phenomenally detailed print in the Leica store made with M11, handheld.  No blur, period.

[Guest]

You could try bracing yourself and holding the camera properly i suppose?  it might work?

[cboy]

I believe the sensor direction debate will continue long into the future untill the M12 😆 comes out. It be from thorough future reviews and testing that the new sensor can argued for and against. 

This forum is a essentially a techie forum so expect debate lol.

Edited January 15, 2022 by cboy

[M Journey]

IBIS would be an awesome feature, and it would be a day 1 upgrade for me when they finally add it to a M body.  Not having IBIS doesn't make the 60mp of the m11 a negative though. It would have been better with IBIS, but it isn't there, so it is what it is.  I look forward to taking my m11 out and learning how to shoot with it and get better.  I'm not sure when I'll pick up Nikon Z again...I suppose its when I need to shoot something that my 35mm (only 1 Leica lens so far) can't handle.  

Maybe Leica didn't want to shake up the M world too much at once and risk completely alienating their purists. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Getting the M11 does not mean that I will print larger than I did with M10R.

Unfortunately most here don’t print.  But they might crop (and/or pixel peep/magnify), perhaps a lot more with an M11.  But I get your point, which many likely miss, hence the myth.

Jeff

Edited January 15, 2022 by Jeff S

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Artin said:

Like I said before,  those hiding the so called purist camp will always find some excuse while clutching their M8 and M9. I have seen this same bull crap for the past 10 years. The shutter sounds wrong , files are too big, the colour is not Leica. It’s too fat, it’s too skinny. I like the base plate , I hate the base plate.

while all they have to say is good camera but I don’t need it thank you. That’s it the End 

So you wants lots of articulate positive comments about the wonder of " the new product" but a simple "don't need it ,that's it end" for anything negative?

Do you have a lot of nodding donkeys working with you ? like hitlers generals?

[ynp]

There is a Medium format digital world where the resolution above 60 mpx has been a common thing for many many  years. And before the GFX100 there were no IBIS. And working ISO was usually 100-320. Those cameras were not always being used on tripod in studio, a lot of people shot outside. Millions of pictures were shot without any stabilization. It’s insane that  people suddenly started to think that a 60 mpx Leica is unusable without stabilization. The design of the M body allows for it. It’s not a coincidence that Texan Leicas ( Fuji rangefinders) were so popular in the film era. 

[rramesh]

If Jono, Thorsten, Farkas and other are able to take great photos with the M11, I don’t think there is any issue with the shutter. As far as the sound goes, well the M is not part of a symphony orchestra.

Edited January 15, 2022 by rramesh

[Jipster]

4 minutes ago, rramesh said:

If Jono, Thorsten, Farkas and other are able to take great photos with the M11, I don’t think there is any issue with the shutter. As far as the sound goes, well the M is not part of a symphony orchestra. 

Well said. Reading some of these comments about the shutter sound makes me feel some of us should become musicians. Only professional violinists are that picky about being in tune (tongue in cheek).

[Stevejack]

2 hours ago, lburn said:

So is the M11 a flawed concept in its current form? Do all the owners of Sony, Nikon, Cannon etc high res 35 m cameras all go round with image stabilisation turned off?  No.  Why not?

Just on this point, mine is off most of the time on my Sony A1. It is a great feature, but I'm usually either shooting above 1/4000sec or I'm shooting below 1/60 sec and panning with my subject. I don't really take many photos where the subject is still, or where I want my image to have no sense of movement at all. I also think a little shake makes for a great image in my book, but I understand that it's not the case for everyone.

I would argue that IBIS is particularly useful in an M camera just because a lot of people are shooting in that 1/15 to 1/125 range pretty frequently. I don't care that it's not on the M11, there are plenty of workarounds both in-camera and in post if I want an absolutely sharp image...  but I feel bad for those who really wanted it in the M11 - Leica should absolutely add it to the M as soon as they can. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Artin said:

Actually I do have a quite few of those Armchair quarterbacks working for me.

Negative or positive comments need to be credited. Buy the camera use it then tell me all about it negative or positive. I purchased the M10R , and the M11 and I can tell you by my experience of owning and using both Cameras the M11 is a giant leap forward in every way that matters for a photographer. The only negative is the cost of upgrading that’s it 

If your happy with the M11 that's great and all that matters.

My camera is the M262 which i adore and a camera i have produced the best photos i have ever taken in my life with but sadly leica has moved away from the rangefinder only type of camera so for me the M11 has no appeal even from my armchair.

I do understand its difficult for leica to balance the traditional with the modern but as they lean towards the the modern the camera loses its appeal for me.

Have leica made the right call? time will tell i guess?

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[Herr Barnack]

36 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

...Do you have a lot of nodding donkeys working with you ? like hitlers generals?

Ouch.