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Why I will not be getting a M11...


bernstein1234
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1 minute ago, SrMi said:

I was clearly wrong. All pre M10 cameras seem to have almost instant startup. Thank you for correcting me. I learned something new about my M8 and M9 :). And you are correct that my statement indicated that I spoke about non-M10's as well. That was not my intention.

No worries. Just explaining why I replied how I did. Thank you for that. Now back to writing my M-P Typ 240 review :)

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1 minute ago, CGarrard said:

No worries. Just explaining why I replied how I did. Thank you for that. Now back to writing my M-P Typ 240 review :)

I still have all my M digital cameras (M8, M9, M10M, M10-R). Will never forgive myself that I traded-in my M240 when getting a new digital M :(.

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5 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I recognize you are not. Others... well.

As long as we're bitchin, lets change the subject I will now tell you all the definitive reason why you should not buy an M11.  Mine just arrived and frankly, I'm utterly disappointed. Especially with all the reviewers, even the nicest guy on the face of the earth, Jono for not stating this very first thing in their reviews. 

They changed the box! No more chest of drawers. It's just a camera in a box!!! At first I thought they sent me a Fuji by mistake. What the hell!!!  It's not Christmas in January if opening the box isn't the best part. Outrageous. End of an era. Total disappointment. Depression. Despair. Startup times... Phooey!  Where the hell is that beautiful one of a kind box?!? 😂

Ok, ok, breath, breath. Slowly in, out.  Sigh... I'll learn to live with it.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's saves you from having to watch a rather long and boring unboxing video. 😀

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3 hours ago, CGarrard said:

The constant extra wear on the shutter is also something to consider…

This has come up several times in this thread, but M9’s with hundreds of thousands exposures are reported in the forum, and not a single known instance of a digital M experiencing shutter failure through overuse.

Even if you are right, whether the double close-open-close-open exposure sequence causes an M11 shutter to max out at 250,000 instead of 500,000 clicks (just to pull some numbers out of the sky) seems an engineering non-issue, given that most of us will never reach those kinds of figures anyway.

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I just double checked delays m10r and m11. To switch on until first image they are really in the same ballpark, even to close to measure a diffrence manually.

if you press the shutter while switching on in classsic mode the m11 is very slightly faster, until the shutter fires.

Shutter delay between pressing the shutter and getting the image is also very close. Where the m11 has a slight advantage is in live view.

overall i am quite sure: for people who think the m10r was too slow, the m11 will not be any better ( in regards of speed) , except in liveview. For people who think the m10r is fine for them in regards of speed, the m11 will be fine as well.

and then there is Jonos suggestion: due to better battery just leave the camera switched on more often.

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Some thought from a long time user. I had the M11 since August as a beta-tester.

  • Startup/wakeup: I think it is about 1 sec not 2 sec but it is hard to measure. The M10 was about 1 1/2 sec. For years I complained about startup time at Leica and here in the forum without much reaction. Leica hears on us (but not on me alone). If they would have had the impression of a big issue they would have worked on this. But due to their explanation it is not easy to shorten startup. Modern cameras are a computer that has to boot.
  • Shutter operation/reactivity: I was kind of horrified after reading (before getting the camera) that the M11 is in LV mode always, because LV mode in the M10 is so slow. But they speeded it up rapidly. To me there is no noticeable difference in speed and reaction though there must be one, because there is more shutter operation. I see no disadvantages in practice. Jono Slack and Sean Reid made some tests. The latter came to the result that the M11 is 0,017 sec slower in reaction.
  • Shutter sound: The loudness of the shutter is the same. There are enough films to prove this. The sound is a bit different due to the more complex shutter operation. Some folks love this, some hate it. Its a matter of taste, everyone has to decide for itself.
  • Shutter clunk at startup: The shutter opens after starting the camera. This makes a clunk. This is disturbing but it is not chinese water torture. One can get used to it like me. And I am an old man. To avoid this, Leica would have to construct a totally new shutter. I know that this is expensive (the M9 used the one out of the R-series). Even for Leica and with the Leica prices not all is possible. 
  • Multifield metering: As I said I am an old man with many years or metering experience. Younger people have not, often they don´t know why there is wrong exposure with classic metering. Multifield metering is way better. Who wants to use classic metering has the option - of course with the sensor as metering cell. To omit metering on the shutter curtain saves space for the metering cell, allows the use of some more old lenses and saves production costs. The results of multifield metering are good. Some find them a little overexposed, but this is a matter of taste. And there is sometimes heavy overexposure short after startup (only one photo). This is a bug that will be fixed. 

To sum it up: I had the same skepticism like some of us here but I got used to the changes. They are not a big deal to me anymore in regard of the big advantages of the M11 over the former M. But I encourage everyone to write directly to Leica and beg for a shorter startup time and a new shutter. They listen. 

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5 hours ago, SrMi said:

I still have all my M digital cameras (M8, M9, M10M, M10-R). Will never forgive myself that I traded-in my M240 when getting a new digital M :(.

Starting to regret selling mine too. I used to be so-so about its image quality, but the better I’ve become in processing DNGs, the more I see it produced wonderful images.

In hindsight, the biggest “upgrade” to image quality over the years has probably been my improved ability to get files to render how I like them in Raw processing!

Edited by Jon Warwick
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16 hours ago, davidvanchu said:

The M is an emotional camera. If it became another lifeless mirrorless camera with no rangefinder and electronic only shutter, I think many of us would agree that it would no longer elicit that emotion that we have all come to love. Sound and feel is important for a lot of us, we love the tactile feedback of mechanical operations, and this change in the cadence of the shutter (close,open,close,open vs open,close), while it doesn't result in any difference to the resulting photograph, it changes the experience of taking the photograph, and experience is a large part of why M cameras still exist today.

It is all perception. Technically, Leica could implement an EVF that is best in its class and performs exactly like the OVF that we have at the moment - view outside the lens frame, rangefinder patch overlap etc. with an option to have other means of focussing, like peaking etc. 

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11 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Or you can also ignore all those options in the M11 and just set aperture, shutter speed, focus and click lol

Yes, of course, but it's the effort of ignoring all those options that bothers me, the contant niggle of knowing they are there, wondering if they are still set, if they need resetting to some other mode, etc etc etc. They never quite go away as they do on the M-D where they simply don't exist ...

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6 hours ago, CGarrard said:

Well one, I'm not speaking for anyone so I'm not sure why you are presuming that. Two, who are you to say that the price of admission to speak on behalf of M users that I, or anyone else, must own an M10? 

Man the internet.

Was a joke. Maybe not a good one.  

Edited by dkmoore
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51 minutes ago, Mahesh said:

It is all perception. Technically, Leica could implement an EVF that is best in its class and performs exactly like the OVF that we have at the moment - view outside the lens frame, rangefinder patch overlap etc. with an option to have other means of focussing, like peaking etc. 

How do you implement an EVF with a view outside the lens frame? The view of the EVF is the image through the lens projected on the sensor. To have a view outside the frame you'd have to crop the image.

I'd agree with the previous poster. Leica have created some incredible cameras outside the M line - the Q, SL, CL. All offering different benefits and compromises but none pretending to be an M. Leica can implement all sorts of technical wizardry in cameras but at what level of "modernisation" does an M stop being an M? What would attract people to that over an SL at half the price?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mahesh said:

It is all perception. Technically, Leica could implement an EVF that is best in its class and performs exactly like the OVF that we have at the moment - view outside the lens frame, rangefinder patch overlap etc. with an option to have other means of focussing, like peaking etc. 

Correct me if I am wrong by all means  but I don't see how an EVF can "see outside the lens frame"......An EVF "sees" what the sensor is recording, and the sensor will only "see" what the lens can "see", you can't have a 35mm lens give you a 28mm FOV.

Edited by petermullett
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1 hour ago, Mahesh said:

It is all perception. Technically, Leica could implement an EVF that is best in its class and performs exactly like the OVF that we have at the moment - view outside the lens frame, rangefinder patch overlap etc. with an option to have other means of focussing, like peaking etc. 

No thanks, I stare at screens enough as it is. It is impossible to make an EVF look the same as looking at the world through optical glass. Although I imagine a system like this would use two small cameras in lieu of the two windows, with software that overlaps the images controlled by the rangefinder cam mechanism which could be greatly simplified in this case, and I think it would be very cool as a concept.

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On 1/14/2022 at 4:25 AM, bernstein1234 said:

Hear me out guys, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of you out there with the same thoughts.

1. More megapixels?

This means having to shoot at much higher shutter speeds even on motionless objects (think 1/100, 1/200). Previously I could get away with 1/30 for statics on a M10-P, 50mm focal length. Of course one can argue to mount the fastest, fattest and baddest Summiluxes, but that would defeat the purpose of having the reduced weight on the black aluminium M11.

Not having seen real samples (yet), but I would think that 40mp would suffice. Of course, people used to say '24 is the sweet spot', but then I started to notice the lag on my MBP with the 40mp M10-R.

2. Bigger battery?

I could carry 2 spares for M10-P on my trips, the weights hardly noticeable.

3. Better sensor?

I'm not sure about M11, but according to Jono, the base ISO of M10-R yield the same or even slightly better dynamic range than the ISO 64. Anyhow, I am pretty satisfied with the dynamic range on M10-R. Also, if I want to get the Leica look easily, I can always turn to my M9-P.

4. Lighter weight?

I suspect that to complement the lightweight package, the lenses would have to also be smaller (think Summicrons, Summarits). But as mentioned in Point 1, having 'slower' lenses would mean the need for higher shutter speeds due to the increase megapixels previously only seen in Medium format territory, where steady hands or tripods/monopods are necessary. For me, I found that M9 is light enough, coupled with Summicrons, the total weight is around 590g + 255g = 845g for M9, as compared to 532g + 320g = 862g for M11.

5. Probably better high ISO?

If assuming from Point 1 is true about having to shoot at higher shutter speeds than previous models, then it will also mean having to bump up ISO when light conditions are not optimal.

 

My take

I would stick to combination of M10-R (Black Chrome version) and M9-P for now. The only purchase I would make is probably the Visoflex 2. On the whole, I think I'll wait out for M12 or until the next model with IBIS, due to the ever increasing arms race for more megapixels. Are they necessary, really?

 

And what does the apples with oranges weight comparison reveal.......?

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8 hours ago, M9reno said:

This has come up several times in this thread, but M9’s with hundreds of thousands exposures are reported in the forum, and not a single known instance of a digital M experiencing shutter failure through overuse.

Even if you are right, whether the double close-open-close-open exposure sequence causes an M11 shutter to max out at 250,000 instead of 500,000 clicks (just to pull some numbers out of the sky) seems an engineering non-issue, given that most of us will never reach those kinds of figures anyway.

Just stating the facts about the design. I made no claims about the longevity nor did I make it a big deal, "something to consider" means exactly that, something to consider. No more or less than that.

Besides the extra noise, lag, and degraded user experience as a result of that for *some*, there's the battery life portion as well. Without classic metering, you don't have an option to save battery life by using classic metering. I can't imagine what kind of battery life the M11 would get if it wasn't using it's sensor 100% of the time it is on (unless its in standby of course). Probably in the thousands of shots with that big thing :). 

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