Struggling with Decision About SL2-S

[threeseed]

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4 hours ago, beewee said:

M lenses work best on M cameras and any improvements in ergonomics by adapting M lenses onto an SL body is compromised by the image quality.

SL series has the same micro-lens array for corner edge performance with M lenses.

But the M10-R sensor does have superior dynamic range to both the SL2 and SL2-S so that could be what you're seeing.

Either way it's not something that is intrinsic to the M-series. It's more that the SL2 is older and the SL2-S was a partnership with Panasonic and so has different goals e.g. video.

Edited December 28, 2021 by threeseed

[beewee]

3 hours ago, threeseed said:

SL series has the same micro-lens array for corner edge performance with M lenses.

Sorry but no. This has never been stated by Leica. Leica does improve some aspects of their L-mount cameras to make it better than other third-party companies when used with M-lenses such as correcting for distortion, vignetting, colour casting, estimating aperture, and also makes use of a thinner cover glass compared to other third-party mirrorless cameras. However, the one thing that Leica never mentions is that the micro lenses on the SL cameras are optimized for M-lenses. If that were the case, an M-lens should work equally well on an M-body as compared to an SL body. That I can say is not the case and I’ve tested this on many wide angle M-lenses. 18 SE, 24 Elmar, 28 elmarit ASPH, 35 lux pre-FLE, 35 FLE.

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[Alistairm]

8 hours ago, beewee said:

I think you’ve basically summed up what differentiates the M from other camera systems. At its core, the M is all about being in control and making conscious decisions on manipulating the camera in such a way to make the image that you envision. It’s not easy and it requires practise where you develop an intuitive connection to a lens and camera combination in relation to its haptics and the look of the image. M photography in the context of imaging making is like calligraphy in the context of typography. The tool is stripped to the bare minimum and it’s up to the person that holds the tool to develop the skill needed to get the most out of such tool.

In the absence of the willingness and interest to hone the craft, an M camera would be frustrating to use and produce poorer results than an iPhone. It is only when you spend the time and effort to develop the craft in using an M camera that you will be rewarded with its results. It’s a very unique style of photography which can be polarizing from a user perspective, especially those who have not spent hundreds of hours with the camera in hand. But when you develop that innate connection with the camera and understand it at an almost philosophical level, there’s no other camera quite like an M.

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M10 + 24 elmar

You cheated by emphasising your point with a cracking photo! But I agree completely. 
 

[LocalHero1953]

6 hours ago, threeseed said:

But the M10-R sensor does have superior dynamic range to both the SL2 and SL2-S so that could be what you're seeing.

 

Source? I don't have the M10R, but I understood that the SL2S had a noticeably better dynamic range to the M10, and that the M10R although improved, was not that much better (though much improved over the M10 in highlight roll off).

[littlelio]

I have exactly same position at you: using Z6 + 24-70, and looking into replace it with SL2-s and a similar focal length range.

I got the SL2-s, and in the end I got SL24-90

Well it depends what you plan to do with it. Z6 is much lighter, but with Z9 coming, I think I will sell it eventually. 24-70 F/4 is great (better than AF-S 24-70 F/2.8 VR!), but it is not fast enough so this kit is going anyway.

I have not taken Leica to the job but I believe it provides good results, the only thing is... it is going to be heavy... but as a trade-off, I am willing to take it.

The only thing I miss is the flash system, but in complicated situation, I have to use manual anyway...

Hope you are happy with your choice!

[augustwest100]

On 12/28/2021 at 1:11 AM, beewee said:

Sorry but no. This has never been stated by Leica. Leica does improve some aspects of their L-mount cameras to make it better than other third-party companies when used with M-lenses such as correcting for distortion, vignetting, colour casting, estimating aperture, and also makes use of a thinner cover glass compared to other third-party mirrorless cameras. However, the one thing that Leica never mentions is that the micro lenses on the SL cameras are optimized for M-lenses. If that were the case, an M-lens should work equally well on an M-body as compared to an SL body. That I can say is not the case and I’ve tested this on many wide angle M-lenses. 18 SE, 24 Elmar, 28 elmarit ASPH, 35 lux pre-FLE, 35 FLE.

I land somewhere in the middle of this discussion, from a very non-technical perspective. What I can say from personal use is that the SL2S plays better with M glass than the Sony A7rII or the A9 did.

But for wider lenses, like the SEM 21mm, I do think the lens performs better on an M body than on the SL2S. There will always be trade-offs though. The EVF experience on the SL2S with the SEM is quite a nice experience, but very different from framing with an external optical viewfinder or using live view on an M body.

[lencap]

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Thanks again for the continuing comments.  I went to the local Leica dealer yesterday and he has a very nice (9 condition) used SL manufactured in late 2018 for sale.  Unfortunately his stock of L lenses is limited to used Sigma 35 DGDN (7+ condition), and Sigma 50 50 1.4 DG ART lenses (9+ condition).  

When comparing it to my Z6 combo I found that the "in hand feel" of the SL was generally "OK", but not exceptional.  The grip, especially the squared off lower portion, was a bit challenging, especially with the ART lens, which was very impressive, but also VERY large.  The dealer had no Leica Zooms as a comparison, but I assume the ART lens isn't far off the smaller Leica zoom in size/weight.

As I tried focus and other features the camera was again "OK", but not significantly better than the Z6.  Color was hard to tell on the LCD display, but it looked fine.  My honest reaction after trying it out was "It's a Leica, but is it really better than the Z6/Zoom combo?".  Not sure about the answer, but I didn't feel compelled to buy it on the spot.

The dealer has no stock of SL2 or SL2-S cameras for comparison.

I then asked about M bodies only to find he has none in stock - new/used doesn't matter.  He's got nothing to show.  He suggested with the M11 around the corner he may have some trade ins after release, but even if he does the price will be not very different from the original selling price for the newer models.  He did have a very nice Summilux 50MM used lens.  When I held it and played with it a bit, I again realized how much I've come to enjoy the distance markings on traditional lenses, along with the obviously smaller overall package.  

No decision yet, but I'm glad I was able to at least get a better idea of the SL and how it feels in hand, even though it's an older version with non-Leica glass.

[Anakronox]

The SL2 and SL2-S are far more comfortable in the hand than the SL. Don’t judge the newer models by the old.  You really do need to try the SL2 to understand the difference.  I had the SL and its sharp edges were uncomfortable to grip for long periods, but the SL2 has smoother, rounded corners and a divot your fingertips fall into.  I have fairly large hands, so this was a very welcome improvement for me.  And I say this as a former Z6 owner, which needed an l-bracket before it was comfortable to hold.  

[augustwest100]

54 minutes ago, Anakronox said:

The SL2 and SL2-S are far more comfortable in the hand than the SL. Don’t judge the newer models by the old.  You really do need to try the SL2 to understand the difference.  I had the SL and its sharp edges were uncomfortable to grip for long periods, but the SL2 has smoother, rounded corners and a divot your fingertips fall into.  I have fairly large hands, so this was a very welcome improvement for me.  And I say this as a former Z6 owner, which needed an l-bracket before it was comfortable to hold.  

I agree with this - the SL2S body has a little rubbery indentation where your middle fingers would fall on the grip. It is very satisfying to hold, and you can actually comfortably hold The camera with quite a hefty lens attached by just your middle two fingers (though of course I would not recommend you actually doing this!)

I struggled with your decision also. In the end it’s a trade off - the Sony/Nikon/Canon bodies are generally lighter and sort of sculpted fits, where the Leica bodies are heavier. That’s sort of a personal choice. However, ask me which one I would want to own after it got banged or dropped or bumped or bruised. One will probably be in pieces and the other will probably still be clicking away

[Gavin Cato]

7 hours ago, lencap said:

When comparing it to my Z6 combo I found that the "in hand feel" of the SL was generally "OK", but not exceptional.  The grip, especially the squared off lower portion, was a bit challenging, especially with the ART lens, which was very impressive, but also VERY large.  The dealer had no Leica Zooms as a comparison, but I assume the ART lens isn't far off the smaller Leica zoom in size/weight.

it's been a couple of years since I've touched an original SL but the SL2 incredibly comfortable to hold. Honestly significantly better than any canon/nikon/sony body in my opinion.

With your lens questions. I'm not a fan of stuff like a 24-70. I think a SL2 with the 35/2 or 50mm 1.4 or f/2 is a magic combo and is there that you can see the Leica iq stretching it's legs over the canon/nikon/sony stuff.

 

 

 

 

[Ba Erv]

I have the SL2-S and after a 3 month trip around the EU and Balkans last summer it’s been relegated to the box.  Even with M lenses I avoided picking it up after a few weeks. It’s just too heavy, awkward, and draws attention. If you’re toting a tripod for landscape or fashion/wedding photog on assignment it may be perfect; I don’t like it and regret the purchase. 

[lencap]

Your comments are very helpful.  I again "played" with the Leica Q and found that my issues with the 28mm perspective are likely more related to technique and framing than a limitation imposed by the camera itself.  I'm very used to the 50mm frame, which I've used as a primary lens for over 50 years.  I never gave myself much time with the Q to truly learn correct framing, or how to avoid facial distortion in portrait situations.  Seems to me that I should spend more time learning before making a major shift.

Also realized that the SL may be the best "all around" camera, but I am seriously concerned about weight, as Ba Erv points out.  It felt heavy with the Sigma 50MM ART lens, and I would image that Leica zooms likely be even heavier.  Getting primes is an option, but still seems as if I have to decide if autofocus is as important as I'm made it.  I did pretty well using M cameras and zone focusing Summicron/Summarit lenses in the past. I do want to explore faster lenses, more for the ability to create blurred backgrounds and other "atmosphere" shots than I've made in the past.

Also realize that maybe a replacement for my older M cameras with a smaller body/lens combo will let me use the camera more.  Finally, it may be that keeping the Z6 combo and the Q is also a valid solution.  Just get to know the cameras better, use the User Keys, properly setup on the Z6, and ignoring the deeper menu choices. 

Lots to explore - thanks for the help.

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 12/28/2021 at 8:34 PM, LocalHero1953 said:

Source? I don't have the M10R, but I understood that the SL2S had a noticeably better dynamic range to the M10, and that the M10R although improved, was not that much better (though much improved over the M10 in highlight roll off).

The M10R is noticably more usable DR than the M10. Maybe 1-1.5 stops. Also marginally better than the A7R3 and Z7 I own, mainly due to the lack of PDAF units on the sensor. The M10R requires a bit more care in the highlights but is far better at shadow recovery. I don't think the M10R has better highlight rolloff than the M10 but it does tend to expose slightly more conservatively to preserve highlights. The reduction to 42MP from 47 is irrelevant at the sizes I print to (A1).

I don't have an SL2-S but from my limited time with it, annecdotally, I'd say it's about the same as the M10R.

The M10R sensor is so good that a M11 would have to do something really astonishing for me to even consider it.

Gordon

[Andrew Gough]

On 12/28/2021 at 3:11 PM, beewee said:

Sorry but no. This has never been stated by Leica. Leica does improve some aspects of their L-mount cameras to make it better than other third-party companies when used with M-lenses such as correcting for distortion, vignetting, colour casting, estimating aperture, and also makes use of a thinner cover glass compared to other third-party mirrorless cameras. However, the one thing that Leica never mentions is that the micro lenses on the SL cameras are optimized for M-lenses. If that were the case, an M-lens should work equally well on an M-body as compared to an SL body. That I can say is not the case and I’ve tested this on many wide angle M-lenses. 18 SE, 24 Elmar, 28 elmarit ASPH, 35 lux pre-FLE, 35 FLE.

"The sensor also plays a key role in terms of the com- patibility of the Leica SL-System. For instance, it is optimized for use with Leica M-Lenses and, in addition to supporting all functions, delivers a picture quality that can be achieved only by Leica cameras."

https://www.leicauae.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/160901_SL_Broshure_en_2016_low-1.pdf

[Andrew Gough]

Anecdotal: From the SL2 Brochure

"While cutting-edge new features such as in-body image stabilization unlocks newfound potential from legendary Leica M-Lenses, it simultaneously augments the growing selection of SL-Lenses which are some of the finest optics Leica has ever produced."

https://leica-camera.com/sites/default/files/pm-54744-191101_SL2_catalog_en_lowres.pdf

[Ba Erv]

I want to add that the SL2-S sensor is likely the best in Leica’s stable. The result that camera produces is outstanding and as organic as it gets.  My displeasure with the camera was entirely due to the form factor; bulk just doesn’t suit my travel.  

[FlashGordonPhotography]

8 hours ago, Andrew Gough said:

"The sensor also plays a key role in terms of the com- patibility of the Leica SL-System. For instance, it is optimized for use with Leica M-Lenses and, in addition to supporting all functions, delivers a picture quality that can be achieved only by Leica cameras."

https://www.leicauae.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/160901_SL_Broshure_en_2016_low-1.pdf

I think the original claim was that the SL cameras had the same microlenses and edge to edge performance as M cameras. Certainly the SL cameras have microlenses to work with M lenses better than other mirrorless bodies but no one with an SL2/S and an M10 claims they are the same. Some perform just as well. A few even better (Noctilux). But they wider you go and the older a lens design is the bigger the M to SL difference becomes. The coverglass stack on the M is thinner than the Sl which makes for better corner performance. The SL has a thinner cover glass and microlenses than other mirrorless cameras.

Gordon

[Chris Edwards]

I faced a similar dilemma, having had the Z6 since launch, it has been good, but I never loved it. Then I bought a Leica Q2, and as a everyday / take anywhere option I have been extremely pleased with it,. It is a pleasure to use, the image quality is great, & the ability to crop partly overcomes the fixed focal length.

Then I found I was using the Z6 less & less, but wanted the flexibility of different lenses. So, trade-up to Z7ii?, wait for Z9?, another Leica??..... after lots of deliberation I recently bought the SL2-S with the 24-70 2.8. Initial impressions are very positive, everything about it screams great design and build quality. The menu system is simple, & intuitive. With the lens it is fairly hefty, so be careful if weight is a issue for you.

Good look with the decision. My advice, follow your heart and get the red dot....

[lencap]

I believe my issue is schizophrenia.  I seem to change my mind as often as a chameleon changes its appearance.

Yesterday found me deciding that despite the benefits of the SL/2/S platform to "do it all", the weight and feel of the camera was just too much to ignore.  I decided that for me the M platform was a better match.  I love smaller lenses, seeing distance and range markings on lenses, and the feel of taking pictures, not having a camera do it for me.

Then I reconsidered how a used SL in very good condition at my local dealer may give me a low cost way to explore the SL platform.  If I buy it and decide it's not for me the resale risk may be $500 or so - not very difficult to accept, and essentially less than renting a camera for a few weeks.

The issue then became which lens?  The 24-90 zoom I'm sure is wonderful, but it's a heavy beast and I'm not sure that I'd enjoy it very much after a full day of shooting.  The dealer has a lightly used Sigma 50MM ART lens that would certainly work, but that lens is also a handful.  It gives a front biased weight feeling to the camera, and isn't overly comfortable.  I don't know how well it images given my limited time with it in the store.  The dealer also has a used Sigma 35 f/2 DG lens, but it's a bit overly "used", maybe 7 or so condition - not a great way to start with a new platform.  I know it will bother me sooner rather than later.

So, I'm changing from minute to minute.  Get a used SL to see what I think of it, but compromise with a lens choice (the dealer stock is very low for all L gear)?  Move to a M platform camera, giving up the ability to autofocus?  Do I go with a Summilux for the "artsy" shots, or a more reasonably priced Summicron?  

Or, just keep the Z6/Q combo and learn both cameras well enough to make them do what I want easily and repeatedly?  

See what I mean?  Chameleon....

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[Ba Erv]

Analysis paralysis.