M11 rumors : Leica in bed with Sony ?

[jdlaing]

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Just now, hdmesa said:

With the IQ of any BSI sensor.

No, they don’t. Leica doesn’t have any competitors for an M mount rangefinders. 

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

No, they don’t. Leica doesn’t have any competitors for an M mount rangefinders. 

Competitive to results.

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[stefanusj]

until today, i believe the most advanced technology and most reliable vendor for camera sensor is...  Sony.

BSI is Sony...

I hope Leica R&D team can work together with sensor's vendor to make the leica's color (or Kodakchrome's similar color) implemented in M11. 

but, from what i've seen in SL2-S, the color is more flat than SL2 or SL. SL2S is bsi, and (again) bsi is Sony.

Edited December 28, 2021 by stefanusj

[stefanusj]

the race for sensor right now is: high iso/noise controlled and high megapixels. I just dont care about both. if the object is too dark then it's a sign NOT to take a picture. 

[PCPix]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:35 AM, Mikep996 said:

never used any German "sensors."

Not even Agfa Mike? Came from the same country of origin as the cameras I believe? 😉

[Chaemono]

Sony sensors, or BSI sensors for that matter, render the OOF areas slightly more detailed with SL primes wide open. Sometimes it can be an advantage, sometimes it may distract. I actually like more detailed blur in the OOF areas in general.

[SrMi]

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22 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Sony sensors, or BSI sensors for that matter, render the OOF areas slightly more detailed with SL primes wide open. Sometimes it can be an advantage, sometimes it may distract. I actually like more detailed blur in the OOF areas in general.

I kind of doubt that. How many different cameras with BSI sensors did you evaluate?

[Chaemono]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

I kind of doubt that. How many different cameras with BSI sensors did you evaluate?

Two with SL primes. One is a direct comparison with SL2. It’s evident on a larger monitor. More subject separation with the SL2 but I prefer the rendering of all the details in the OOF areas with the SL2-S. Sold the SL2. Here the APO 50 Summicron-SL with the SL2 https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sg9gfG/i-p6HPLz9/A and here another copy of the APO Summicron-SL with the SL2-S (I have two copies of the lens) https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sg9gfG/i-XCmVGhm/A 

Then Sony BSI sensor with APO 50 Summicron-SL on the S5 in high contrast scene as captured in RAW rendered in LR https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/i-NxD6Kxw/A Excellent control of details in highlights with this sensor and the SL primes. And here as processed https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/i-QqCjJ27/A 

Edit - first comparison is the people on the bridge with the lady in the orange jacket in the front. Second comparison is the motorcycle in high contrast scene.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Chaemono

[Mikep996]

5 hours ago, PCPix said:

Not even Agfa Mike? Came from the same country of origin as the cameras I believe? 😉

Hmmm...good point!   I'm sure I must have used some Agfa film though I don't really remember doing so.   

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Two with SL primes. One is a direct comparison with SL2. It’s evident on a larger monitor. More subject separation with the SL2 but I prefer the rendering of all the details in the OOF areas with the SL2-S. Sold the SL2. Here the APO 50 Summicron-SL with the SL2 https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sg9gfG/i-p6HPLz9/A and here another copy of the APO Summicron-SL with the SL2-S (I have two copies of the lens) https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sg9gfG/i-XCmVGhm/A 

Then Sony BSI sensor with APO 50 Summicron-SL on the S5 in high contrast scene as captured in RAW rendered in LR https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/i-NxD6Kxw/A Excellent control of details in highlights with this sensor and the SL primes. And here as processed https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/i-QqCjJ27/A 

Edit - first comparison is the people on the bridge with the lady in the orange jacket in the front. Second comparison is the motorcycle in high contrast scene.

Thank you for the comparisons.
Since BSI can handle steeper incident angles than non-BSI sensors (IMO, their main advantage), it is likely that the topping for BSI-based Leica cameras is different and can influence the rendering a bit.

 

[ravinj]

Speaking of Leica staying competitive, a company that has the pricing power to sell a 10-year old lens design in a "special edition" package for $16k+ each prior to release has no competitors.  

[adan]

23 hours ago, SrMi said:

How do you know that it is or it isn't? Leica has never specified who makes their sensors, AFAIK.

How soon we forget.

It was well-known and proudly publicized at the time, that the CCD sensors for the DMR back, the M8/M9, and the S2 were all made by Kodak. And that the rest of the electronics were engineered (and programmed) by Jenoptik - also involving Imacon for the DMR (which caused production delays - Hasselblad bought Imacon during the development of the DMR, and was not very, umm, enthusiastic about helping competitor Leica).

As a niche camera maker, with "special needs" for the M cameras (minimal transparent layers on top of the silicon, offset microlenses), Leica had to find someone who could do "bespoke tailoring" of their sensors. Which also didn't hurt Leica's own positioning as a maker of unique "bespoke" cameras.

It was known (if not publicized much) that the M(typ240/246/262) CMOS sensors were designed by CMOSIS (Antwerp) and fabricated by STMicro (Grenoble - Dr. Kaufmann does like to source things in Europe, where possible). Probably they also handled the original M10 sensors - not sure about the 40Mp -R/Monochrom sensors.

.........................

Anyway, I am all for BSI sensors. Among other things, they may reduce the "hot reds" problems Leica has always battled with. As well as better ISO performance (less light-blocking clutter on top of each pixel), and even the need for special microlenses for Ms.

It could well be that Sony, as an innovator in the field, can (and now is willing to) deliver their tech, in small batches, at a cost competitive with niche providers.

[Herr Barnack]

@adan - My understanding is that the M11 will not have a BSI sensor. 

Is that correct?

[nicci78]

60MP without BSI = technical suicide. The tiny photosites absolutely needs to be BSI. Otherwise light gathering will be too poor. 
 

With BSI each photosite is way bigger than FSI one. 
 

By the way 60MP without IBIS = technical suicide too. 
 

Combining two technical major issues is not a great idea. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by nicci78

[LBJ2]

On 12/27/2021 at 1:12 PM, jdlaing said:

I hate to destroy your dreams but it’s not a Sony sensor.

Do tell !

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Two with SL primes. One is a direct comparison with SL2. It’s evident on a larger monitor. More subject separation with the SL2 but I prefer the rendering of all the details in the OOF areas with the SL2-S. Sold the SL2. Here the APO 50 Summicron-SL with the SL2 https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sg9gfG/i-p6HPLz9/A and here another copy of the APO Summicron-SL with the SL2-S (I have two copies of the lens) https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sg9gfG/i-XCmVGhm/A 

Then Sony BSI sensor with APO 50 Summicron-SL on the S5 in high contrast scene as captured in RAW rendered in LR https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/i-NxD6Kxw/A Excellent control of details in highlights with this sensor and the SL primes. And here as processed https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-k9nCT7/i-QqCjJ27/A 

Edit - first comparison is the people on the bridge with the lady in the orange jacket in the front. Second comparison is the motorcycle in high contrast scene.

What I see is the same background but the SL2 has a sharper subject, which increases the perceived separation. A high-res BSI sensor should produce the same separation as you're seeing here with the SL2 but with the benefits of the BSI tech.

Edited December 28, 2021 by hdmesa

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

Do tell !

Never. I gave my word.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

60MP without BSI = technical suicide. The tiny photosites absolutely needs to be BSI. Otherwise light gathering will be too poor. 
 

With BSI each photosite is way bigger than FSI one. 
 

By the way 60MP without IBIS = technical suicide too. 
 

Combining two technical major issues is not a great idea. 

Improved light gathering at these sensor sizes is not a benefit for BSI sensors. M43 cameras have smaller pixels than 60MP FF cameras, no BSI sensors and work fine within the constraint of the sensor size.

BSI's advantages are better handling of steep incident angles and faster readouts. The latest Sony sensors also support dual conversion gain. 

Does an M10-R make sense to you? For example, a 60MP M11 needs a 20% faster shutter speed than M10-R to avoid camera shake.

 

 

[Dennis]

46 minutes ago, SrMi said:

For example, a 60MP M11 needs a 20% faster shutter speed than M10-R to avoid camera shake.

Cause this, with the upcoming M12 (100MP) in 2024, the minimum shutter speed available will be 1/500 😜

 

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[Herr Barnack]

22 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Cause this, with the upcoming M12 (100MP) in 2024, the minimum shutter speed available will be 1/500 😜

 

My crystal ball is predicting a renaissance of tripod and cable release use.

Regarding a 100 mp M12, I can see no reason for 100 mp given that the majority of photographers never make prints.  Given that, 100 mp in an M camera seems like a riotous exercise in overkill.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Herr Barnack