M11 rumors : Leica in bed with Sony ?

[nicci78]

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What if 60MP sensor is true ? 
what if it is the Sony 24x36 60MP BSI sensor tweaked by Leica. 
Wetzlar has done wonders with Sony full frame 24MP BSI implementation within SL2-S. 

Before that Leica has done the best version of Sony APS-C 24MP FSI sensor inside the CL. 
 

So will we have in the future an SL3 and Q3 with a custom 60MP from the A7R mark IV ? 
 

So will we get a 26MP BSI from Sony into future CL2 ? 
 

What do you think of the future of Leica if they ditch their relationship with US/Israeli TowerJazz ? Which is the maker of SL2-Q2-S1R 47MP ? 
 

Looking at SL2-S, Sony is a way better supplier 

[Jeff S]

Whatever works best for Leica.  Won’t make any difference practically for me or, dare I say, most photographers.  Anyone who struggles to make worthy pics with the already stellar gear choices available, will likely continue to struggle. But the race to compete business-wise marches on.

Jeff

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[jankap]

So what? The road seems to be at its end. A new direction should be found. Storing the depth of a scene perhaps.

[TeleElmar135mm]

Perhaps it's a way to freeze the price of the M11 nearly on M10-R level.

O.k. I'm dreaming - too much Eggnogg - or as it's called here in Germany: "Eierlikör"

[Al Brown]

Even Canon used Sony sensors, I see no trouble with Leica doing it. Can only be an asset.
 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Al Brown

[cboy]

Sony has been sleazy and sleeping with most manufacturers 😆

The thing is Leica keeps things secret to adds to its mystique and that helps with its value. It's not surprising that that they procure from a sensor foundary with a added specific colour topping...And since Panasonic is out in the sensor business who else but Sony...Towerjazz had partnered with Panasonic previously

Ironically at Leica's heart is non German sensor. I'm fine with that  since Leica adds a distinct colour signature 

 

 

[Tailwagger]

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BSI? 60Mpx?  It's a Sony sensor. 

Regardless, for Leica I see this as a positive development in terms of securing a more dependable supplier.  For the camera world in general, I'm less enthusiastic. One worries that Sony is now a monopoly in this space.

[Jipster]

One should distinguish between sensor development and sensor fabrication. Since M sensors require very specific lenses on sensor because of incidence issues, it is a specific sensor designed by Leica. It cannot be an off the shelf sensor. Who cares who builds it. It’s like Apple silicon for Iphone might be built by a Taiwanese company, but it”s designed by Apple.

[Mikep996]

I used both Kodak and Fuji "sensors" in my M2 and M6, never used any German "sensors."  It's best to have sensors made by people who know how to make sensors...whatever their form!

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Mikep996

[rramesh]

Well if Nikon and Sigma contemplate using it, why not Leica? After all, isn't it the micro lens, the cover glass design and software needed for Leica lenses that differentiates.

Why, down the road, Sony might just offer an A7M version body for M-mount lenses.

Edited December 27, 2021 by rramesh

[nicci78]

M11 will be the third camera with Sony 60MP BSI after Sony A7R IV and Sigma fp L. 
Any of you like the rendering, the noise and the sharpness of these two cameras ? 
 

M10-R was special, because Leica needed to make 40.5MP sensors to also have 65MP 30x45 sensor for its MF S3. They both use same manufacturing process. 
No M10-R means no S3. 

I wonder now if making super specific sensor tech for two super niche devices in a spiralling downwards camera business makes any sense at all in 2022.

We may see in the future a cheaper  S4 using Sony 100MP 33x44 or a different cut version in 30x45mm. 
60MP BSI may also be a way to secure APS-C 26MP BSI. All 3 sizes are made together with the same process. 
So Sony will be more inclined to sell at least two sizes or all three to any manufacturers. 

So far only PhaseOne and Fujifilm use 100MP 33x44. 
Sony and Sigma 60MP 24x36. 
Fujifilm and Pentax 26MP 23.4x15.6 mm. 
Leica maybe in the future the only one using all three.

It will be quite a change in strategy. Having only one CMOS imaging supplier from 1 inch C-Lux & m4/3 D-Lux 7 all the way to M11 & a potential MF S4. 
 

 

[Simone_DF]

34 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

M11 will be the third camera with Sony 60MP BSI after Sony A7R IV and Sigma fp L. 
Any of you like the rendering, the noise and the sharpness of these two cameras ? 

I had the Sony A7R IV for a while and I didn't like the noise. But I liked it more than the Towerjazz sensor in the SL2/Q2. 

Leica did a really good job with the Sony sensor in the SL2-S, so maybe that will be the case with the SL3 too.  

[Adam Bonn]

AFAIK…. Sony just keep buying up sensor foundries, hence their monopoly.

Other than whatever ones personal views are on things like this… I doubt it makes much odds to us… you might find that nearly every camera uses a particular brand capacitor or type of solder or something like that for the same monopoly reasons

Its not just the chip, as mentioned above it’s the layers of the entire sensor assembly, and as well how well the whole thing is coded to work…

…for a while Nikon were buying sensors from Sony, then using their expertise and experience to get better performance from their implementation than Sony could.

Its a bit like car engines, you can share the block, power train etc across platforms and brands - but it’s the tuning (engine management) that makes the difference 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, nicci78 said:

M11 will be the third camera with Sony 60MP BSI after Sony A7R IV and Sigma fp L. 
Any of you like the rendering, the noise and the sharpness of these two cameras ? 
<snip>

Fuji GFX100S and Phase One 150Mp back also use the same sensor, just of different sizes. The rendering, noise and sharpness of future and current cameras using that sensor cannot be extrapolated from the output of Sony a7rIV. The sensor toppings, firmware, and electronics (and lenses) will determine that.

[jdlaing]

21 hours ago, nicci78 said:

What if 60MP sensor is true ? 
what if it is the Sony 24x36 60MP BSI sensor tweaked by Leica. 
Wetzlar has done wonders with Sony full frame 24MP BSI implementation within SL2-S. 

Before that Leica has done the best version of Sony APS-C 24MP FSI sensor inside the CL. 
 

So will we have in the future an SL3 and Q3 with a custom 60MP from the A7R mark IV ? 
 

So will we get a 26MP BSI from Sony into future CL2 ? 
 

What do you think of the future of Leica if they ditch their relationship with US/Israeli TowerJazz ? Which is the maker of SL2-Q2-S1R 47MP ? 
 

Looking at SL2-S, Sony is a way better supplier 

I hate to destroy your dreams but it’s not a Sony sensor.

[hdmesa]

Doesn't matter who makes it as long as it's BSI. The Q2/SL2 sensor are old tech now, so if the same source makes new sensors for Leica, they need to be BSI to stay as competitive as possible in my opinion.

[SrMi]

57 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

I hate to destroy your dreams but it’s not a Sony sensor.

How do you know that it is or it isn't? Leica has never specified who makes their sensors, AFAIK.

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

I hate to destroy your dreams but it’s not a Sony sensor.

Of course it isn't. Leica will swear to god that their sensor are from unknown supplier. 

They still refuse to acknowledge that CL and SL2-S ones are made by Sony. Even if testing prove that they are too similar to Sony counterpart.

Don't worry, it is the same for every manufacturers. Nikon will not budge and still proclaim that theirs are from undisclosed supplier. Etc...

Only Canon and Sony are proud to say to the world that they do manufacture their own sensors. 

 

What I see is that using modify Sony sensor is far cheaper and better that creating its own inferior ones. No more R&D wasted for nothing = cheaper cameras for us or at least better margin for Leica. Or a little bit of both. 

 

M10-R, M10 Monochrom and S3 custom sensor development prove to be extremely costly. They are the top three most expensive Leica cameras by far. 5 years ago an M10 was only 6,500€ now an M10-R is 7,990 €. For what ? a custom sensor that you have to give up only 18 months later ? Crazy strategy,  what a waste of ressource. 

I rather see Leica doing their best to get the better part of a Sony sensor than trying to reinvent the wheel. 

 

If M11 is using a 60MP Sony sensor it is an excellent news for everybody : us, Leica and Sony of course. 

So far SL2-S has raving reviews thanks to its cheaper and excellent Sony 24MP BSI sensor. 

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by nicci78

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Doesn't matter who makes it as long as it's BSI. The Q2/SL2 sensor are old tech now, so if the same source makes new sensors for Leica, they need to be BSI to stay as competitive as possible in my opinion.

Competitive with who?

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[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, jdlaing said:

Competitive with who?

With the IQ of any BSI sensor (with themselves in the case of the SL2-S).

Edited December 27, 2021 by hdmesa