Square Format M (30.5x30.5 mm)

[MrFriendly]

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I want a digital M camera with a square format sensor, preferably a monochrome one.  The more I shoot, the more I find myself cropping my images into a square format.  I don't want to crop, specially when I'm shooting with certain M lenses.  I don't understand why there is literally no digital camera with a square format sensor.  Is it just market demand?  

[frame-it]

25 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

I don't understand why there is literally no digital camera with a square format sensor.

here you go

https://instax.com/sq20/en/

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[adan]

Several square-sensor digital backs were made for medium-format cameras in the early 2000s - Hasselblad's own CFV v.1, Kodak's DCS-Pro 16, Phase One's H20. 16 or 25 Mpixels, cropped 1.5x from regular 6x6 film format. The Leica M8/9 used Kodak's CCD "pixel circuitry" - just arrayed in a small rectangle.

https://petapixel.com/2020/10/19/using-a-17-year-old-digital-back-on-a-hasselblad-500c-m/

https://www.keh.com/shop/dcs-pro-16m-p-digital-bk-555eld-1.html

And Leica itself made the original (1996) S1 scanning camera with square sensors. Accepted M and R lenses with adapters, although only some will actually cover the full 36 x 36mm sensor. It is the namesake for Leica's S2, S007, and S3 larger-sensor SLR cameras. Also, with 1996 tech, it only functioned tethered to a computer. And was huge.

https://www.apotelyt.com/camera-review/leica-s1

Rumors pop up now and then about newer square sensors. But the fine print usually indicates they are intended for some technical application like machine vision or high-speed video, not for general photography.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2411745048/nikon-develops-1-type-square-cmos-sensor-that-can-capture-hdr-video-at-1-000-fps

And many lower-end cameras offer a 1:1 crop mode as well.

Yeah, it is mostly economics - we "square folks" are just too small a market. Especially since the viewfinders as well as the silicon would have to be re-arranged, also in limited numbers (= expensive).

As someone who shoots film these days only in 6x6 (Mamiya 6, or Hasselblad SWC) - and scans for the full negative and black border (no cropping), I'm kinda torn.

The fact that square sensors are hard to come by is a great excuse for shooting film and keeping the old cameras (and my processing skills) alive.

But I would like to see the "Irving Penn/Diane Arbus/Vivian Maier/David Bailey" format carried on into the future in digital form as well - it just presents the world so differently.

[pop]

I agree that there's a lack of square or even circular sensor cameras. So many ergonomical questions would suddenly become moot. Add a second shutter release and you have a camera that's equally useful for left and right hand shooters. No more ridiculous contortions for portrait format pictures (or landscape, as the case may be).

[evikne]

I would love to have a digital M with a square format sensor! I kind of feel obligated to make rectangular images because the sensor has this shape, so as not to waste too many pixels. But for me, a square format would be the most natural in most situations. 

[elgenper]

I keep my (rather ancient) Ricoh GR in crop ratio 1:1 and b/w all the time.  "Only" 10,6 Mp in that mode, but very pleasing results.  I call it my "pocket Rollei"...

[jankap]

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Is not this solvable as a firmware option? The viewfinder has - as I believe - electronic outlines already. Crop inside the camera at 4k x 4k is a loss. But on the other hand a new exclusive M-edition: M-square! A collectible!

Edited December 22, 2021 by jankap

[jankap]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

I would love to have a digital M with a square format sensor! I kind of feel obligated to make rectangular images because the sensor has this shape, so as not to waste too many pixels. But for me, a square format would be the most natural in most situations. 

Not for me. I take 95% of my pictures in landscape mode. I even like the 16 x 9 mode.

[Marac]

I used 2 pieces of electrical tape down either side of the sensor, works really well although the mechanical shutter gets stuck sometimes, oh well

[weinlamm]

I'm an happy owner of a square camera. A Phase One P20+. And I'll never will sell it... Keep it for ever (not least because it's not possible to get real money for such old backs... ). But it's nice to play with! 

I love to print squares (mostly portraits) - and put the final pictures in our frames at home. So it's fun to hear, that other do the same 305x305 mm work. It's not easy to find such frames... (here are the most sold ones are 300x300 or 400x400 - but my print-service at home is only offering 305x305 - without cutting). 

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But back to your problem...
With my Leica I take pictures - and cut them later via software. I'm taking them with my M240 (in b&w-mode), "edit" them with DNGMonochrome (it's a guy from our forum who creates it) - and cut them to square later with Photoshop. 

For me: easy! 

And in the digital world it's easy to get this square in the EVF. Canons, Nikons, non-M Leicas... I think nearly every camera should have a square-view in the EVF. With that (and some edits in camera-styles) it should be easy to get your pictures ready ooc - without any editing (but for me it's one more part of fun...).

 

Cutting something is much easier than putting something together.  I create very often 2:1 panos with my P20+... so I know such kind of problems. 

No way for you...? 

 

 

[evikne]

22 minutes ago, weinlamm said:

No way for you...? 

It's probably a bit like the screenless D-models. People who "don't understand" say: "if you don't want a screen, just turn it off". 😉

Edited December 22, 2021 by evikne

[mike3996]

2 hours ago, jankap said:

Is not this solvable as a firmware option? The viewfinder has - as I believe - electronic outlines already. Crop inside the camera at 4k x 4k is a loss. But on the other hand a new exclusive M-edition: M-square! A collectible!

The framelines are lit electronically on the recent digital M models but are purely a mechanical construction.

[fenykepesz]

me too, i would absolutely love to see a modern sensor in the cameras i used in the past, my much loved Rolleiflex 2.8GX or a 500C.  very frequently i crop down to the square format while the picture itself is taken usually in portrait format, strangely :

    https://pistikem.org/pistikem/html/20211107-123629-000.html

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by fenykepesz

[TeleElmar135mm]

A square sensor 36x36 is a bit problematic because the M is not so high to construct a shutter fitting into the body (or you have to throw out the Messsucher but that's a no go  ). The same problem is with an electronic only shutter. A square 24x24 sensor is easy: Use Photoshop or a Leica SLin jpg - mode (Raw is full frame). And a 30,5x30,5 is something between, but makes this sense? I think not. 

[pop]

6 minutes ago, TeleElmar135mm said:

And a 30,5x30,5 is something between, but makes this sense

Presuming that a lens produces a circular image and that the image covers the complete area of the film gate (24 by 36 mm), the circle would have a diameter of about 43.3mm. The largest square which fits into that circle would measure aout 30.5mm on a side.

Hence, we can assume that existing M lenses can produce square images of that size.

[FrozenInTime]

Alway thought a film M with 24x24 frames lines, masked off film gate and re-geared wind-on would a very nice item, but the days of printing un-cropped including rebate have largely passed. Cropping square from 24x36 can usefully give the equivalent of lens rise quite easily with todays pixel counts, so not convinced it's worth the effort chasing a super-slide like digital sensor.

[adan]

BTW - before I decided I wanted the authenticity of real 6x6 images with natural borders, I figured out the "crop factor" for 24 x 24mm pictures compared to a real 6x6 neg (actually about 55mm x 55mm). It is 2.3x (55 divided by 24).

Here are the "equivalent" focal lengths for M lenses, cropped square from a 24x36 image area, to match actual 6x6 lenses. The same values also work if cropped for 6x7 (Pentax 67, Mamiya 7/RB67, Plaubel Makina, etc.)

M lens    6x6 equivalent
16mm = 37.33 (very close to the Hasselblad SWC's 38mm Biogon)
18mm = 42mm (40mm Distagon)
21mm = 49mm (50mm Distagon)
24mm = 56mm
25mm = 58mm (almost a 60mm Distagon)
28mm = 65mm
35mm = 81.6mm (80mm Planar)
40mm = 93mm
50mm (usually 51.6mm in reality) = 120.4mm (120mm Makro-Planar - a really nice (if slow) "normal" on the Hassy)
65mm (Macro-Elmar - requires old-school Visoflex) = 149.5mm (150mm Sonnar)
75mm = 175mm
90mm = 210mm
105mm (Nikkor LTM or "Mountain Elmar") = 245mm (250mm Sonnar)
135mm = 315mm

Note, however, that the "drawing" (DoF, bokeh, "leaf-shutter effect") will still not necessarily be equivalent.

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor einer Stunde schrieb pop:

Presuming that a lens produces a circular image and that the image covers the complete area of the film gate (24 by 36 mm), the circle would have a diameter of about 43.3mm. The largest square which fits into that circle would measure aout 30.5mm on a side.

Hence, we can assume that existing M lenses can produce square images of that size.

It's not a problem from the image circle. You have to construct a new shutter in an unusual format und must bring them into the body. And than 30,5 x 30,5 for image quality are only a bit better than 24x24mm. There 36x36mm are more useful but in both cases from the dimension of the body it is no longer an M. 

And the new M11 will have so much pixels, cropping wont be a problem. And the price (I think)  of a square M would be in no relation to any photographic benefit 

[adan]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Alway thought a film M with 24x24 frames lines, masked off film gate and re-geared wind-on would a very nice item,

There certainly have been odd-ball 35mm film formats. Besides the obvious motion-picture/half-frame cameras (16 x 24) and the occasional pano formats (Widelux/XPan/35mm film-through-MF-camera).

The Robot motorized cameras shot 24x24 squares (50 shots per ~36-exp roll, since the motor ripped off so much film at a time): https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Robot

Leica made a few specially-cropped (24x27) "Post Cameras" for the German Post Office.

The original Nikon RFs (Nikon 1/Nikon M/Nikon S) came in 24x32 and 24x34 formats - but within 6 years Nikon quit "swimming against the tide" and adopted the standard 24x36 frame for the S2.

Edited December 22, 2021 by adan

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[JMF]

The closer I got to a 1:1 Leica M body is by converting a 24x27 post camera .

A M2 RF unit was fitted with a M3 top cover .

The top cover and base plate were black chromed .

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The M2 viewfinder frame mask  is 24x36 , not 24x27 .

Still have to find some square format external finders 😉

The 24x27 post camera came with a 28mm f5.6 Summaron that is now  RF coupled  and adapted to M .

Shot with a 21 Super Angulon f4 and TriX:

Best
 

JM

 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by JMF