Colour rendering difference between copies (50:2 v4)

[grahamc]

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Hello everyone

I've never had different copies of the same lens before now, although just purchased a second copy of 50:2 v4 in Black Aluminium. 

by coincidence both lenses produced in 1993 with the first 3 digits of serial being the same - so can assume similar production period.  But I was quite surprised that my chrome copy seems to render cooler colour out of camera than the copy I just bought.

This was replicated over may shots so is not a change in light .   

Interestingly it is the warmer copy that produces the similar colour to my 35:2 v4.  This makes sense as I would assume 50 v4 and 35 v4 to render colour similarly. 

Overall not a big deal ,  but surprising - is this kind of variance common or is there something else going on. 

My new copy (the warmer one) appears to need calibration to my rangefinder perhaps as it's not as sharp, hopefully that's all it needs. 

Pics attached : 

Summicron v4 Chrome (cooler ?)

Summicron v4 Standard Black (warmer ?) 

Summicron 35 v4 (warm similar to black copy ? ) 

Thanks !

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Edited December 19, 2021 by grahamc

[frame-it]

Did you try to set a white balance instead of using AWB & then test as well ?

Edited December 19, 2021 by frame-it

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[grahamc]

33 minutes ago, frame-it said:

Did you try to set a white balance instead of using AWB & then test as well ?

No, but I did think about it so maybe I should do that ?    As it was a consistent difference on AWB I didn't feel it necessary, but I'll do it and report back, thanks

[grahamc]

2 hours ago, frame-it said:

Did you try to set a white balance instead of using AWB & then test as well ?

Here is some shots all in day light and with Daylight white balance.   The chrome shots (the cooler on AWB) are on the right and for what it's worth they do seem to look a little greener here IMO

I'm unsure if this is significant (colour of the book is very close) .  I probably prefer the right hand side overall although it was the other one that matches my 35:2 so go figure

 

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Edited December 19, 2021 by grahamc

[lct]

For side by side comparos, you need to use the exact same light to be sure so no outdoor pics i fear. Same for indoor pics of course but you need to make sure that your lens did not move at all between the shots in order to keep the exact same FoV. Did that been there in my youth. Works fine but too boring for me... Too bad as i own two 50/2 v4 too an early one made in Canada and the later one made in Germany that i got in as new condition with 6-bit coding. IQ wise they look the same except that i did not check for their flare resistance so far. Should be the same i guess but happens that my v5 has a bit less flare than the early v4. I should check if the late v4 is closer to the v5 if i were not so lazy... End of that totally boring story .

[Stuart Richardson]

Variations are not uncommon, especially in older lenses. Some of the old summicrons have yellowed and can now only really be used with black and white film, but I believe these were the ones with the thorium based radioactive glass. I don't think they were using radioactive glass in the 90s. Perhaps it is a difference in exposure to light? Lots of compounds (such as the glues/cement holding the elements together) can fade or color shift after a long time exposed to UV light or atmospheric pollution.

[grahamc]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

For side by side comparos, you need to use the exact same light to be sure so no outdoor pics i fear. Same for indoor pics of course but you need to make sure that your lens did not move at all between the shots in order to keep the exact same FoV. Did that been there in my youth. Works fine but too boring for me... Too bad as i own two 50/2 v4 too an early one made in Canada and the later one made in Germany that i got in as new condition with 6-bit coding. IQ wise they look the same except that i did not check for their flare resistance so far. Should be the same i guess but happens that my v5 has a bit less flare than the early v4. I should check if the late v4 is closer to the v5 if i were not so lazy... End of that totally boring story .

Haha thanks lct.  It did occur to me midway through this experiment that it was a little boring but, well, it was Sunday and I was putting off doing some even more boring other things. 
 

Sad to say also that the experimenting is probably not over 🙄 

I get what you are saying about the light.  Seems odd that the difference is fairly consistent but luckily I didn’t lose any sleep over this (yet!) 

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Variations are not uncommon, especially in older lenses. Some of the old summicrons have yellowed and can now only really be used with black and white film, but I believe these were the ones with the thorium based radioactive glass. I don't think they were using radioactive glass in the 90s. Perhaps it is a difference in exposure to light? Lots of compounds (such as the glues/cement holding the elements together) can fade or color shift after a long time exposed to UV light or atmospheric pollution.

Thanks yes this makes sense.  I just found it interesting as my intention was to buy a duplicate copy, just in a lighter barrell

If they are different (my test was exactly scientific but they do appear to differ) then I think the less cool is probably the “correct” one (or more correct one after all these years) - as it’s close / same to my 35:2 v4 of same year. 
 

Edited December 19, 2021 by grahamc

[Herr Barnack]

18 hours ago, frame-it said:

Did you try to set a white balance instead of using AWB & then test as well ?

That was my first thought, that the different color cast between shots was due to using AWB.

AS @Stuart Richardson observed, older lenses can have a color shift due to the aging of the adhesives used to bind the individual lens elements together.  I would not think the glass in the lens elements would have a color shift with age, but I'm not an optical engineer.

When shooting digitally, a slight color shift can be compensated for in post - but if you are shooting E-6 film, you are stuck with it, unless you plan to scan the chromes and print from the scans by inkjet.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[grahamc]

4 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

That was my first thought, that the different color cast between shots was due to using AWB.

Thanks @Herr Barnack  I see the logic but thought it was odd that even with AWB the cooler cast was specific to one lens out of 3.
 

I’ll have to do a bit more playing around when I have more time and work out if this is all in my imagination    I don’t think the outdoor shots can be given too much weight here as I find even with same lens there is colour and contrast variation between several shots. 
 

The chrome copy seems to have a bit less contrast also so this could well be coating related 

[farnz]

It's possible you might be suffering from 'subconscious confirmation bias' which would be quite understandable and probably invisible. 

The reason that I say this is that I downloaded the last pair of sample pictures from post #4, converted them into LAB colour space in Photoshop to separate the colour information from the luminance and used the Colour Sampler tool to give me a numerical reading and thereby take all variables relating to monitors, drivers, Operating Systems, eyes and spectacles etc out of the matter.  I used the small dark border at the top of the picture in both cases because it looked the most neutral (closest to 18% grey) and consistent and the least likely to be affected by variations in the daylight since they appear to be inside and any variance in the light from a light source inside the room should be negligible.  The readings were as follows:

Left hand picture as it appeared on screen:

Lightness (L) channel: 43

Colour channel A (neg = red, pos = green): -1

Colour channel B (neg = blue, pos = yellow): -1

 

Right hand picture as it appeared on screen:

Lightness (L) channel: 43

Colour channel A (neg = red, pos = green): -1

Colour channel B (neg = blue, pos = yellow): -1

 

You can see that the numbers are identical, which indicates that neither is warmer or cooler on the basis of that picture and removing as many variables as possible.

Pete.

[grahamc]

Thanks @farnz.  How interesting (and helpful).

And good news also 

I assume the numbers you are referring to are from the outdoor shots only ?   

[farnz]

7 hours ago, grahamc said:

I assume the numbers you are referring to are from the outdoor shots only ?

Only from the last pair of sample pictures from post #4.

Pete.

[grahamc]

4 minutes ago, farnz said:

Only from the last pair of sample pictures from post #4.

Pete.

Wonderful. Thanks again I’m happy to hear it 

[tom0511]

I do know that my 50 Summilux asph M had more red "in it" than my chrome Summicron 50mm M.