Scanning Provia/transparencies with a digital camera: ICC profiling?

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I have shot 20 4x5 sheets of Provia 100F and I have scanned them with my SL2-S on a Kaiser LED light panel, and imported them to Lightroom with the Adobe Standard profile.
The results are a bit disappointing in terms of colour and contrast (compared to the gorgeous looking transparencies), so perhaps I should be using a Provia-specific colour profile.
I see one can buy IT8 profiles on Provia - for a price, of course.
Has anyone else done this?
What software did you use to convert to an ICC profile?
Were the results worth it? 

Edited December 17, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[250swb]

Have you tried pressing the 'Auto' button(s) (Contrast, Colour) in ACR or Lightroom, it's often a simple way to fix an image.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Have you tried pressing the 'Auto' button(s) (Contrast, Colour) in ACR or Lightroom, it's often a simple way to fix an image.

I have, and it is not a great improvement. In trying to work out why this should be the case, I think it may be because reversal film has a relatively narrow dynamic range, and the Lightroom Auto Exposure setting tries to stretch it too much - at least it looks like the histogram is pulled wider, which seems to deepen the contrast.

I have tried Auto WB as well, but I can get it closer manually. 

I seem to get the best results by doing as little exposure/contrast/white-black point adjustment as possible; reducing saturation helps a bit with skin tones, but it is still not a good match to the colour depth and tonal transitions I see in the transparency on the light panel! I'll post a couple of examples later. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

Portrait: as scanned, imported to Lightroom with all settings to zero/neutral, Adobe Standard profile, and after some processing in Lightroom. (These were just trials for studio lighting in large format, hence the unusual curtain backdrop). The processed one is still a bit green on the backdrop but a bit warmer than the original on the skin.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[LocalHero1953]

And another, under natural window lighting. The processed one is still overall cooler than it should be.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[250swb]

Have you matched your camera to the same colour balance as the light pad? The Kaiser is 5000k but even so 'Auto LB' on the camera should work. Having said that if the adjusted image is the second one in each post I've just fired up Photoshop and pressed 'Auto Colour' and the results come out infinitely better, both your second processed images are too green. Photoshop also deals with the first images better.

Edited December 17, 2021 by 250swb

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

10 hours ago, 250swb said:

Have you matched your camera to the same colour balance as the light pad? The Kaiser is 5000k but even so 'Auto LB' on the camera should work. Having said that if the adjusted image is the second one in each post I've just fired up Photoshop and pressed 'Auto Colour' and the results come out infinitely better, both your second processed images are too green. Photoshop also deals with the first images better.

Yes, the camera is set to 5000k. I have just checked B&W negatives I have scanned with the same technique and camera settings and not seen any colour bias.

I must redo the scans to check the light table was set on maximum brightness; shoot it without pixel shift (which uses the electronic shutter); and see what PS can do. I agree my adjusted (second) images are too green. This batch of 20 sheets included one I accidentally did not expose, so I have a clear film to scan!

[frame-it]

what were the camera settings ? a low iso slightly longer exposure might help with the sheer amount of details on slides

[LocalHero1953]

22 minutes ago, frame-it said:

what were the camera settings ? a low iso slightly longer exposure might help with the sheer amount of details on slides

ISO was set to 100; as I recall aperture was 5.6-6.3 and shutter speed would have been around 0.3s, metered from the histogram.

[Ouroboros]

I don't see anything much wrong in the first image other than the colour balance is clearly biased towards red and makes the sitter appear to be wearing lipstick (the light needs to be moved back or dialled down and further away from the camera to the left).

In your edit, you've introduced too much yellow when trying to correct the colour balance in the skin tones

I think you need to concentrate more on the skin tones, fretting too much about a very slight cyan cast in the background (because it is underexposed!) will take you around in circles.   

Try using his white tee shirt as a white point, pull the mid tones down a bit (watch the contrast, though)  and then desaturate the reds slightly to take the heat out of his face.

Finally, you can deal with the hot spot on the end of his nose!

That's all I did, obviously without having the original tranny to compare with:

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I don't see anything much wrong in the first image other than the colour balance is clearly biased towards red and makes the sitter appear to be wearing lipstick (the light needs to be moved back or dialled down and further away from the camera to the left).

In your edit, you've introduced too much yellow when trying to correct the colour balance in the skin tones

I think you need to concentrate more on the skin tones, fretting too much about a very slight cyan cast in the background (because it is underexposed!) will take you around in circles.   

Try using his white tee shirt as a white point, pull the mid tones down a bit (watch the contrast, though)  and then desaturate the reds slightly to take the heat out of his face.

Finally, you can deal with the hot spot on the end of his nose!

That's all I did, obviously without having the original tranny to compare with:

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thank you, but that is quite a long way from the skin tones of the original (no criticism intended)!

What I posted as my processed version is just one of many attempts to get the colour right, including taking white balance from his t-shirt, eye and making my own adjustments by eye. It was because I couldn't get it right (in my eyes) after lots of trials that I posted here about making a Provia-specific transparency profile. I will work through the steps in my previous post, including @250swb's suggestions, but I'd still be keen from others who have actually scanned Provia, especially with a camera, and whether they used an IT8 Provia target.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Ouroboros]

10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Thank you, but that is quite a long way from the skin tones of the original (no criticism intended)!

 

 

No criticism taken, it was simply an inspired guess on my part with the top image you posted without being able to compare it to the original.

It'll be interesting to see where you get to with this.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Ouroboros

[Guest Nowhereman]

On 12/17/2021 at 3:46 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

...and imported...to Lightroom with the Adobe Standard profile...

No experience with the SL2-S, but the Adobe Lightroom profiles for the M10 are not particularly accurate. I have found the Cobalt-Image profiles an improvement — and Stuart Richardson has even found them to be more accurate than the  custom profiles that was making himself, as you can read in his post here and in second post down.
_______________________________________
Frog Leaping photobook and Instagram

[LocalHero1953]

I have made some progress, attributable to correcting some user error and understanding some machine error.

First, I realised that the Kaiser light panel rechargeable battery was running down; plugging it in to the mains boosted its brightness considerably, and adjusted its colour. Before plugging it in, the Lightroom white balance settings for the panel alone were around temp = 5800K and tint = -35. After plugging it in they were temp = 5350k and tint = -2 . So still not very close to the specified temp = 5000k but better overall. 

A sheet of totally overexposed film (i.e. clear) had a distinct pink colour cast. This could be down to the residual overexposed scene (which is undetectable). Next time I shall properly waste a single sheet to get a test sheet.

I found no difference in the colour and exposure whether I used electronic of mechanical shutter, or pixel-shift multishot or single shot.

I rescanned the images with the light panel on full power. I still had to adjust white balance, but for both images setting temp = 5000k and tint = -25 gave a reasonable match. The match looked even better when, instead of comparing the image on screen with the transparency on the light panel, I held the transparency up against a white background on screen next to the displayed image.

The outcome is that although I am still not fully comfortable with the colours (the background in the first one is too green while the skin is still a bit pink; the skin in the second one is a bit too yellow, while the wall yellow is exactly right), I am confident my processed image is close to the original transparency, that the tonal gradations match, and I have a preset I can use as a starting point for future scans.

Thanks again to all who have contributed and helped rationalise my approach.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 18, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[250swb]

I don't know what the answer is Paul, maybe overthinking it? But in both the latest examples pressing 'Auto Colour' in Photoshop the first image is more punchy and without a slight colour cast, and the second, the little girl colour cast is removed. If you will allow me here is what I get without doing anything extra than 'Auto'.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 18, 2021 by 250swb

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

I don't know what the answer is Paul, maybe overthinking it? But in both the latest examples pressing 'Auto Colour' in Photoshop the first image is more punchy and without a slight colour cast, and the second, the little girl colour cast is removed. If you will allow me here is what I get without doing anything extra than 'Auto'.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Those look fairly good. I haven't tried them in PS yet - I ran out of time today - something to do with the time of year. I'll see if I can spend more time on it tomorrow.

My first aim is to at least get a reasonable digital reproduction, to confirm I have control of the process. I'm happy to deviate thereafter to improve on the original! 

[stray cat]

Hi Paul, I think most of us struggle with skin tones and it is a constant challenge to get them right. I generally find that with scanned film (as I do) there is often too much cyan in the pictures, as evident in the processed picture you've presented. I also found that a little bit of extra exposure would help in the lovely portrait you took of the little girl. I hope you don't mind my processing this portrait, but this is close to how I'd process it (and often I'll change things after living with the picture a few days), giving it a touch more exposure and a touch less cyan in the colour balance. This may not be to your liking, but of course adjusting to taste is most of the fun of post-processing:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!