M Street Photographer Posted January 25, 2023 Share #241 Posted January 25, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) @Adam Bonn , About the setting in the camera: I just spoke to a friend about how he handles it. If it's not about the Jpeg of the camera, he always sets the lens detection to off. The frame is still displayed in the viewfinder. He edits the lens correction with C1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #242 Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, M Street Photographer said: @Adam Bonn , About the setting in the camera: I just spoke to a friend about how he handles it. If it's not about the Jpeg of the camera, he always sets the lens detection to off. The frame is still displayed in the viewfinder. He edits the lens correction with C1. I thought it influenced the raw as well? Well today I must not have fully attached my 50 lux as it took me 3 shots to notice the frame lines were wrong and the info screen said 21mm/2.8 so I can see if there's any difference in the DNGs when I get home Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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M Street Photographer Posted January 25, 2023 Share #243 Posted January 25, 2023 vor 2 Stunden schrieb Adam Bonn: I thought it influenced the raw as well? As far as I know it shouldn't affect RAW's. It would be almost fatal, because a RAW should be untouched in every respect. You should also be able to see that when shooting RAW and Jpeg that there shouldn't be any lens profile correction. Open both side by side (RAW+Jpeg) in C1, then it should be visible (import settings all set to 0). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #244 Posted January 25, 2023 45 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: As far as I know it shouldn't affect RAW's. It would be almost fatal, because a RAW should be untouched in every respect. You should also be able to see that when shooting RAW and Jpeg that there shouldn't be any lens profile correction. Open both side by side (RAW+Jpeg) in C1, then it should be visible (import settings all set to 0). it's not as simple as that, even if the effect is only visible in the SOOC jpeg then it comes from a RAW setting because the camera makes jpegs from it's own RAW, there's a ton of stuff in the RAW file that the RAW app can chose to act upon (or not) - for example, ever use an M9? Ever open an M9 DNG in an Adobe product? Well you just applied a -0.5 EV drop purely because Leica put a tag in the M9 DNG that says drop shot exposure by 0.5EV Remember how on the M9/240 adobe always has zero NR, then after the M10 it started adding different values based on ISO? That's because there's stuff in the RAW file telling it to do it 🙄 I don't know enough about C1 to know how it interprets DNG data... AFAIK C1 M lens profiles don't do anything anyway (certainly never corrected the distortion that my 35 'rit had) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Maclean Posted January 25, 2023 Share #245 Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said: it's not as simple as that, even if the effect is only visible in the SOOC jpeg then it comes from a RAW setting because the camera makes jpegs from it's own RAW, there's a ton of stuff in the RAW file that the RAW app can chose to act upon (or not) - for example, ever use an M9? Ever open an M9 DNG in an Adobe product? Well you just applied a -0.5 EV drop purely because Leica put a tag in the M9 DNG that says drop shot exposure by 0.5EV Remember how on the M9/240 adobe always has zero NR, then after the M10 it started adding different values based on ISO? That's because there's stuff in the RAW file telling it to do it 🙄 I don't know enough about C1 to know how it interprets DNG data... AFAIK C1 M lens profiles don't do anything anyway (certainly never corrected the distortion that my 35 'rit had) I am not sure that information is in the raw file...it's on the camera or lens profile. Now, logically the camera model and lens info is contained in the RAW file, but the file itself just carries the information, not the changes. That's why, when there are programs (DXO, C1, LR) that are not updated on the profile of a lens or camera it won't do anything with that data, just ignore it. In other words; The Raw file is RAW until converted by a program or a camera (into JPG). The RAW file tells the program "Hey, I come from an M9, and the program says...."That means I will take -0.5 EV as per the specifications on that profile" Change the camera model or lens model on the EXIF data and a different outcome will take place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 25, 2023 Share #246 Posted January 25, 2023 vor einer Stunde schrieb Adam Bonn: it's not as simple as that, even if the effect is only visible in the SOOC jpeg then it comes from a RAW setting because the camera makes jpegs from it's own RAW, there's a ton of stuff in the RAW file that the RAW app can chose to act upon (or not) - for example, ever use an M9? Ever open an M9 DNG in an Adobe product? Well you just applied a -0.5 EV drop purely because Leica put a tag in the M9 DNG that says drop shot exposure by 0.5EV Remember how on the M9/240 adobe always has zero NR, then after the M10 it started adding different values based on ISO? That's because there's stuff in the RAW file telling it to do it 🙄 I don't know enough about C1 to know how it interprets DNG data... AFAIK C1 M lens profiles don't do anything anyway (certainly never corrected the distortion that my 35 'rit had) I'm just getting used to LR now, so I can't say anything about it and I don't have the M9 anymore. In C1 I just opened a RAW of the M10 R and the associated jpeg. No lens profile was activated in RAW. The correction of the Jpeg can be clearly seen from the camera with the correction and this is missing in the raw, which in my opinion would also be correct. Regardless Adam, what do you think about opening a thread on this subject. "Does Leica intervene in the M10 / M10R RAW's? And if so, to what extent?" We have a high level of competence here in the forum and regardless of the profile corrections, I would find it interesting to learn something about possible "interventions". It can vary from camera to camera, hence the delimitation to M10 + M10R. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #247 Posted January 25, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 19 minutes ago, S Maclean said: I am not sure that information is in the raw file...it's on the camera or lens profile. Now, logically the camera model and lens info is contained in the RAW file, but the file itself just carries the information, not the changes. That's why, when there are programs (DXO, C1, LR) that are not updated on the profile of a lens or camera it won't do anything with that data, just ignore it. In other words; The Raw file is RAW until converted by a program or a camera (into JPG). The RAW file tells the program "Hey, I come from an M9, and the program says...."That means I will take -0.5 EV as per the specifications on that profile" Change the camera model or lens model on the EXIF data and a different outcome will take place. well it is! Quote Adobe has updated its DNG digital negative specification to allow a series of image corrections to be embedded in the file. Version 1.3 of the non-proprietary RAW file format allows a series of 'corrections and enhancements', which Adobe is calling opcodes, to be defined in DNG files. These opcodes include the ability to specify corrections for lens aberrations such as geometric distortion and lateral chromatic aberration that should be made to the RAW data when it's processed. Adobe has this to say about opcodes: "DNG 1.3 now includes opcodes, a defined list of operations and their parameters for performing complex activities in the raw file conversion process. These activities include corrections and enhancements that are beneficial when performed prior to the demosaic process but are difficult due to a camera's limited processing power. They also include corrections and enhancements that can only be performed after the demosaic process such as lens correction. By utilizing opcodes, photographers can maintain the advantages of raw mosaic data, giving them increased opportunity to improve their photographs with the maximum amount of image data preserved. The DNG SDK has also been updated to reflect the changes to the specification." from here Also here's a screen shot showing some of the tags in an M9 file (there's tags in all the Leica DNGs) - I've highlighted the baseline exposure offset Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! These are all instructions written by Leica for the RAW app to act upon (and let's be honest DNG is adobe's invention, Leica's choice to use and back in the day Leica used to give you a free copy of LR with their cameras - so it's a safe bet that Leica expect's adobe solution to be the RAW app product that's used) Now how much of this info adobe choses to act on, whether they act on it the same way with CC as they did with LR3 (or whatever it was back when the M9 came out) I couldn't tell you... But I assure you a RAW file is not some vanilla entity that starts life in your RAW app for you to shape like clay.... it arrives in your RAW app full of suggestions from the OEM, that your RAW app may/may not act upon and that you can undo/not undo and all this happens with very little visibility... as a general rule of thumb the maker notes are suggestions and/or 'FYI' but anything tagged as EXIF is instrumental to the imaging pipeline of the RAW file, from obvious stuff like what camera was it, to the AsShotNeutral tag which means the white balance was this the ColorMatrix tags are the embedded Leica profile and well that's enough, I get carried away talking about this stuff and I'm waaaay off topic (again)! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! These are all instructions written by Leica for the RAW app to act upon (and let's be honest DNG is adobe's invention, Leica's choice to use and back in the day Leica used to give you a free copy of LR with their cameras - so it's a safe bet that Leica expect's adobe solution to be the RAW app product that's used) Now how much of this info adobe choses to act on, whether they act on it the same way with CC as they did with LR3 (or whatever it was back when the M9 came out) I couldn't tell you... But I assure you a RAW file is not some vanilla entity that starts life in your RAW app for you to shape like clay.... it arrives in your RAW app full of suggestions from the OEM, that your RAW app may/may not act upon and that you can undo/not undo and all this happens with very little visibility... as a general rule of thumb the maker notes are suggestions and/or 'FYI' but anything tagged as EXIF is instrumental to the imaging pipeline of the RAW file, from obvious stuff like what camera was it, to the AsShotNeutral tag which means the white balance was this the ColorMatrix tags are the embedded Leica profile and well that's enough, I get carried away talking about this stuff and I'm waaaay off topic (again)! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4658141'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #248 Posted January 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: Regardless Adam, what do you think about opening a thread on this subject. "Does Leica intervene in the M10 / M10R RAW's? And if so, to what extent?" Ha! Yes good idea, there's very knowledgeable people here about this sorta stuff (no not me, but I understand dcp pretty well) I can tell you that adobe does not have separate lens profiles for different cameras, if (for example) you select the adobe profile for (say) a 35mm cron it's the same profile whether you do with this with an M8 or an M11. Now a 35mm cron is a 35mm cron but I would GUESS that the level of corrections needed between a 60mpx BSI M11 and a APS-H M8 are very different.... here adobe does something under the hood that that's propriety and I don't know how it works.... you might recall adobe f**ked it up with the M11 and it took a revision or two for adobe to be able support their own lens profiles with the M11 🙄 Also see the post I just wrote while you were making yours! To be honest... RE C1 I just shouldn't talk about it... I've never liked it with Leica (loved it with fuji*) so I'm a bit biased against it and not objective... plus the .icm (icc) profile solution isn't something I understand well, I could never get on profiling for C1 and I just gel better with the adobe product *Re the thing with adobe and the M11, C1 had the same issue with the X-Pro2 and the fuji lenses, if you owned an X-T2 the fuji lenses were all corrected automatically, if you owned an X-Pro2 it didn't work at all.... I seem to recall as an X-Pro2 shooter that's when my love of C1 waned significantly actually 😅 Also (it's been a while) doesn't C1 have a setting in the lens tool that literally says just use whatever the OEM embedded in the RAW Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Maclean Posted January 25, 2023 Share #249 Posted January 25, 2023 20 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: well it is! from here Also here's a screen shot showing some of the tags in an M9 file (there's tags in all the Leica DNGs) - I've highlighted the baseline exposure offset Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! These are all instructions written by Leica for the RAW app to act upon (and let's be honest DNG is adobe's invention, Leica's choice to use and back in the day Leica used to give you a free copy of LR with their cameras - so it's a safe bet that Leica expect's adobe solution to be the RAW app product that's used) Now how much of this info adobe choses to act on, whether they act on it the same way with CC as they did with LR3 (or whatever it was back when the M9 came out) I couldn't tell you... But I assure you a RAW file is not some vanilla entity that starts life in your RAW app for you to shape like clay.... it arrives in your RAW app full of suggestions from the OEM, that your RAW app may/may not act upon and that you can undo/not undo and all this happens with very little visibility... as a general rule of thumb the maker notes are suggestions and/or 'FYI' but anything tagged as EXIF is instrumental to the imaging pipeline of the RAW file, from obvious stuff like what camera was it, to the AsShotNeutral tag which means the white balance was this the ColorMatrix tags are the embedded Leica profile and well that's enough, I get carried away talking about this stuff and I'm waaaay off topic (again)! Interesting. Thank you! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 25, 2023 Share #250 Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) @Adam Bonn , Thanks interesting but like you I can hardly talk about it as I lack the knowledge. An unmodified RAW should come out of the camera. If Adobe interferes with the import, can't you turn it off? I also heard the problem of the camera / lens profile, i.e. their combination that is not available in LR. That would speak for DXO Lab 6, which has entered many thousands of camera / lens combinations. It almost seems to be dependent on the RAW converter used to determine who is doing what with the RAW's. Adam, please look : One is with VC 50 1.0 Edited January 25, 2023 by M Street Photographer Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #251 Posted January 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: @Adam Bonn , Thanks interesting but like you I can hardly talk about it as I lack the knowledge. An unmodified RAW should come out of the camera. If Adobe interferes with the import, can't you turn it off? I also heard the problem of the camera / lens profile, i.e. their combination that is not available in LR. That would speak for DXO Lab 6, which has entered many thousands of camera / lens combinations. It almost seems to be dependent on the RAW converter used to determine who is doing what with the RAW's. The RAW file is like a recipe, and the RAW app is like a chef. The chef can follow the recipe, modify it or ignore it. The person using the RAW app is like an assistant chef s/he can also modify it, but s/he only has the ingredients and cooking tools that the RAW and the RAW app have given them and has to work towards the idea of what the food was always supposed to be A RAW file might be all 1s and 0s (binary) but those 1s and 0s have to spell something out, like camera, ISO, WB, bayer filter etc etc or else the ‘chef’ will have no clue if the (say) eggs and bread are for breadcrumbing chicken for the dinner or making a bread pudding for desert. (apologies for shitty analogies) 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #252 Posted January 25, 2023 anyway back OT... I just got this email Quote Your parcel (adam note: spoiler alert it's a CV 50/1) is due to be delivered on Thursday 26th January 2023 The driver will require the parcel to be signed for at the delivery address. If no-one is going to be at home and you would like to re-arrange your delivery, please select from the options below. Sadly I won't be there until Saturday evening.... and that house has no cat, so WTF am I going to test it on? 😅 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Maclean Posted January 25, 2023 Share #253 Posted January 25, 2023 19 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: anyway back OT... I just got this email Sadly I won't be there until Saturday evening.... and that house has no cat, so WTF am I going to test it on? 😅 I got mine last week but haven’t been able to really use it yet. Prelim test shots are great though but I can’t post pics of the family at early coffee time…. Someone will kill me. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 25, 2023 Share #254 Posted January 25, 2023 It wasn't a "real" test. The tree worker was already at work, so it had to be done quickly. The 75 Summarit was on it and then I quickly put on the VC 50 1.0 to take 2-3 more photos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 25, 2023 Share #255 Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Adam Bonn said: I thought it influenced the raw as well? Well today I must not have fully attached my 50 lux as it took me 3 shots to notice the frame lines were wrong and the info screen said 21mm/2.8 so I can see if there's any difference in the DNGs when I get home The lens correction and vignetting are not baked to the DNG file on the M cameras (not sure if it writes it to the DNG or not, but LR/C1 do not apply it by default). On the SL cameras for some reason, vignette correction is baked into the DNG if you selected an M lens profile in-camera, and the correction cannot be removed in LR/C1 (data is likely not written into the DNG but is part of the DNG processing in camera). If it were merely a correction flagged as mandatory, we would still be able to turn off the correction in C1. Edited January 25, 2023 by hdmesa 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #256 Posted January 25, 2023 13 minutes ago, hdmesa said: The lens correction and vignetting are not baked to the DNG file on the M cameras (not sure if it writes it to the DNG or not, but LR/C1 do not apply it by default). On the SL cameras for some reason, vignette correction is baked into the DNG if you selected an M lens profile in-camera, and the correction cannot be removed in LR/C1 (data is likely not written into the DNG but is part of the DNG processing in camera). If it were merely a correction flagged as mandatory, we would still be able to turn off the correction in C1. That’s fantastic info, thank you 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted January 25, 2023 Share #257 Posted January 25, 2023 vor 4 Minuten schrieb Adam Bonn: That’s fantastic info, thank you Maybe we should start the thread, it seems worth finding out more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #258 Posted January 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: Maybe we should start the thread, it seems worth finding out more. there probably is one already somewhere Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #259 Posted January 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: Maybe we should start the thread, it seems worth finding out more. yeah a bunch https://www.l-camera-forum.com/search/?q=opcodes&quick=1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted January 25, 2023 Share #260 Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) https://www.mcguffogco.com/dngcleanermac.html might be fun if we want to back to back test stuff (Woooo another project in the making... I can already feel the marital strife potential building) Edited January 25, 2023 by Adam Bonn 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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