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Voigtlander 50mm f/1 VM


jaeger

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"Just a touch of reverse field curvature". That's not the way I would describe it. Fred Miranda calls it pronounced outwards field curvature, which fits my point of view better. In fact, the field curvature is so strong that I have dropped the idea of getting the lens, even though I have been drooling over getting it for all the other thing it has going for it.

Here's a few of Fred Miranda's shots showing the FC: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/3#15853457

His side-by-side comparisons with the Nokton f/1.2 shows that in many scenarios, the f/1.2 will have more background blur than the f/1 lens in the sides of the image: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/0#rend

Here is FC compared to the two Noctilux lenses: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/6#15856522

Edited by LarsHP
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13 hours ago, LarsHP said:

"Just a touch of reverse field curvature". That's not the way I would describe it. Fred Miranda calls it pronounced outwards field curvature, which fits my point of view better. In fact, the field curvature is so strong that I have dropped the idea of getting the lens, even though I have been drooling over getting it for all the other thing it has going for it.

Here's a few of Fred Miranda's shots showing the FC: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/3#15853457

His side-by-side comparisons with the Nokton f/1.2 shows that in many scenarios, the f/1.2 will have more background blur than the f/1 lens in the sides of the image: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/0#rend

Here is FC compared to the two Noctilux lenses: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/6#15856522

Yes, I have seen his results. They don’t match mine. My sample shows much, much less than his examples illustrate. I don’t know why, whether there is some sample variation, whether it’s because I typically shoot at a different subject distance, or what the cause is. But when I shoot at about two meters and use the “find edges” function in Photoshop to look at the plane of focus, I get almost a perfectly straight line where his test using the same method shows a definite backwards arc. I’m not debating his results—his was a thorough test—but I can’t get mine to behave like his. On my lens, in my photographs, the effect is much more subtle than the examples he posted. It’s still there, but I’m not trying to downplay the issue when I say “just a touch.” That really is my experience. 

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5 hours ago, Jared said:

Yes, I have seen his results. They don’t match mine. My sample shows much, much less than his examples illustrate. I don’t know why, whether there is some sample variation, whether it’s because I typically shoot at a different subject distance, or what the cause is. But when I shoot at about two meters and use the “find edges” function in Photoshop to look at the plane of focus, I get almost a perfectly straight line where his test using the same method shows a definite backwards arc. I’m not debating his results—his was a thorough test—but I can’t get mine to behave like his. On my lens, in my photographs, the effect is much more subtle than the examples he posted. It’s still there, but I’m not trying to downplay the issue when I say “just a touch.” That really is my experience. 

That's fascinating. I expect you may be right that there is some sample variation at play here, then.

A background story that supports this: When I had the 28mm Summicron-M Asph II, I sent it to Wetzlar for optical adjustment, because I felt the general sharpness wide open wasn't living up to the standard I expected from the MTF charts. When I got it back, the field curvature when stopped down to f/4, where it looked the worst, was huge (inward curving). So, I had to send it to Wetzlar again. When I got the lens back, the odd field curvature behavior was gone.

In other words, even the same lens barrel and lens elements may create field curvature, if the lens isn't put together perfectly.

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2 hours ago, LarsHP said:

That's fascinating. I expect you may be right that there is some sample variation at play here, then.

A background story that supports this: When I had the 28mm Summicron-M Asph II, I sent it to Wetzlar for optical adjustment, because I felt the general sharpness wide open wasn't living up to the standard I expected from the MTF charts. When I got it back, the field curvature when stopped down to f/4, where it looked the worst, was huge (inward curving). So, I had to send it to Wetzlar again. When I got the lens back, the odd field curvature behavior was gone.

In other words, even the same lens barrel and lens elements may create field curvature, if the lens isn't put together perfectly.

Fred’s sample generally seemed to perform very well, on balance beating out the Leica f/0.95 and f/1 Noctiluxes. I’m used to some sample variation due to element decentering, but that usually affects corner performance more than anything. I can’t explain the difference between my results and his. He mentioned that curvature was worst at 2-4m and his testing was at 4m. Mine was at 2m. Who knows. Interestingly, the two Leica’s had worse reverse field curvature.

I’m sure one can make a strong argument for the CV f/1.2 being the best compromise. Smaller, lighter, minimal viewfinder blockage, and solid performance with less vignetting. Even it has imperfections, though, as its performance is not as good at close range. I don’t own that lens, so can’t compare. I do own the f/1.2 Noctilux reissue which I love, but it is hardly a lens that will satisfy everyone due to its poor performance even slightly off axis when wide open. I find it fun and find the rendering really cool. Others find the bokeh far too busy, presumably due to the heavy astigmatism off axis when wide open. To each their own.

On balance, the best 50mm I have ever owned is the Summicron APO, but it just won’t give you the subject isolation of the ultra fast lenses. The current gen 50mm Summilux is also superb. Sigh. Pick your poison—they all have compromises.

In summary, the Voigtlander f/1 is really good, probably better than the pricier Leica Noctilux lenses, and much less expensive. That doesn’t mean an f/1 lens will be the best for all situations. I like mine and use it quite a bit. Recommended. 

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I have the Nokton f/1.2 myself, so when I saw Fred Miranda's comparisons, including the quite strong outward field curvature in his sample and others' (posted in this forum that looked similar), I dropped the idea of getting the Nokton f/1. However, your experience seems to suggest that some samples may behave more sensibly, which may make me reconsider at some point. The center separation in the Nokton f/1 is spectacular, and it's every bit as sharp as I would wish for, wide open. The issue, then, is getting a "good" sample. Since there are no local shops having this lens, I would have to buy it on an online store from abroad. Those two factors keep me on the fence.

Edited by LarsHP
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I have no way to tell you what the likelihood is that you'll see the performance I am used to vs. what Fred Miranda saw. If it helps, though, here are three images I jus took on my front "yard"--I live in a city, so not much grass to play with... All three images were taken within a few seconds of each other. All three images were taken with focus set to 2m based on the scale on the lens. The three lenses were the 50 APO, the Nokton f/1, and the Noctilux f/1.2 Asphere Reissue. All three were shot at their widest apertures. You can see:

  • 50 APO: Amazing sharpness and contrast, but with limited ability to control depth of field since it's f/2; almost no field curvature
  • Nokton f/1: Much narrower depth of field, strong vignetting, and the reverse field curvature I described as "slight", but still retaining very good resolution and contrast
  • Noctilux f/1.2: Much less contrast, narrow depth of field, strong vignetting, crazy bokeh, only sharp in the center of the frame, with mustache shaped field curvature

The Photoshop "Find Edges" filter shows the rough shape of the field curvature by identifying parts of the frame that have high contrast edges. Yes, the Voigtlander is inverted, but not in a way that I find noticeable in real-world images.

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Don't know how helpful this is since it doesn't resolve any discrepancies between my experiences and Fred Miranda's, but it will hopefully illustrate why I was describing the reverse field curvature as "slight". No profiles applied on any of the images. Adobe Color. No exposure adjustment. All at ISO 64. All hand held (which is why the APO and Noctilux are pointed just a touch lower than the Nokton).

Edited by Jared
Typo and a bit more info to add
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17 hours ago, robb said:

Well I love mine.  I don’t seem to have that issue.

Robb

Not to ruin your joy using this lens, but images you have shared in this thread have obvious signs of reverse field curvature. I am thinking of the one from Lake Tahoe and the two vertical B&W images from Hawaii. The decrease in background blur away from the center looks just like Fred Miranda has shown. 

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So what are you going to get instead?

What I should have said was I don’t notice any issue… or I don’t see why that is a problem if there.  Most of my favorite images and use is closer than their noted zone… lol

Robb

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4 hours ago, robb said:

So what are you going to get instead?

What I should have said was I don’t notice any issue… or I don’t see why that is a problem if there.  Most of my favorite images and use is closer than their noted zone… lol

Robb

One day, I might change my mind and get the Nokton f/1, but as it is, I have the Nokton 50mm f/1.2 which isn't perfect either. It is a very good compromise between speed and size, and works well as an all round lens.

I really love the separation you get at f/1 in the central part in above the mentioned images. However, since the field curvature bends as it does, which in most cases will be particularly problematic at medium focus distances, where the f/1 aperture otherwise shines, I have decided that I am not getting something else. Of course, the field curvature will in some situations enhance the amount of perceived blur, if the point of focus is in the outer mid-frame, while the background is in the center. Having that in mind, you can use this characteristic as a creative tool when using that lens.

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Lars, you seem to know what you like, dont like and what you want to see in a lens in terms of its technical abilities. I think the VM50/1.0 is not the lens for you, as even when you have it, you will find something you dont like :)  I think it is good to be of a strong opinion, even if I do not share it. 

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I loved the separation of all the players... and I wasn't worried about good or bad field curvature at all.  :)  But it's all good if you guys find it a problem.  I'll take a look at the SL summilux again but that lens felt a bit heavy and harder to manual focus.  I could see a use for it but the 50 1.0 just seems nice in many ways.  I am not the fastest to focus it I'll admit but I'm ok slowing down as I get older.  I definitely approach things differently than when I shot my first image 35 years ago.

Path Station platform in Jersey City, New Jersey - Leica SL2 with Voigtländer Nokton VM 50mm 1.0 Aspherical MC, iso 320, 1/60th sec at f 1.0

Robb

 

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The lens is not as bad as some reviews on the internet tell us.

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M10 + Voigtländer Nokton 50mm 1:1.0 VM

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On 10/5/2022 at 8:35 AM, Jared said:

...He mentioned that curvature was worst at 2-4m and his testing was at 4m. Mine was at 2m. ...

He said FC is worse at mid-distance to infinity, which I can verify having used mine on the M11:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/21#16061971

I have never seen any unacceptably distracting bokeh related to FC with this lens for how I shoot.

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6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

He said FC is worse at mid-distance to infinity, which I can verify having used mine on the M11:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/21#16061971

I have never seen any unacceptably distracting bokeh related to FC with this lens for how I shoot.

His own test here contradicts what he says in that reply to me. In that test, he kept the framing and then did a focus bracketing series from 1.5 to 7 meters, and it shows that the field curvature gets progressively flatter at longer focus distances. He even confirms is it in his comment: "Notice how the field curvature flattens from close distance towards long distance on the Leica M10-R ... "

In this image at infinity, the plane of focus appears to be flat. So, perhaps Fred forgot his otherwise well-done field curvature tests?

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51 minutes ago, LarsHP said:

His own test here contradicts what he says in that reply to me. In that test, he kept the framing and then did a focus bracketing series from 1.5 to 7 meters, and it shows that the field curvature gets progressively flatter at longer focus distances. He even confirms is it in his comment: "Notice how the field curvature flattens from close distance towards long distance on the Leica M10-R ... "

In this image at infinity, the plane of focus appears to be flat. So, perhaps Fred forgot his otherwise well-done field curvature tests?

Could be. Or could be how the M10-R works with this lens versus the M11. I sold my M11 due to too many lenses not having flat field at infinity compared to the SL2-S in multi-shot high res mode. Even the CV 50 APO was weaker at midframe on my M11 compared to the SL2-S and what I had gotten in the past on the M10-R.

Even if it was just an issue with my specific copy of the M11 at infinity, the FC at closer distances with the 50 f/1 wide open never once gave me an image that I thought was ruined by sharper bokeh toward the edges or excessive swirl.

— To elaborate a bit more about FC at infinity with this lens on the M11: at f/1, the center 1/3 of the frame was ridiculously sharp with expected smooth falloff of sharpness toward the edges. Stopping down induced wave FC that gave sharper center and edges than midframe. Stopped down to f/8 to f/11 would improve flatness enough to be usable for landscape, but it was definitely not optimal. —

Edited by hdmesa
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On 10/7/2022 at 10:03 PM, robb said:

Great lens.  :)

Project manager in Jersey City, New Jersey - Leica SL2 with Voigtländer Nokton VM 50mm 1.0 Aspherical MC, iso 200, 1/60th sec at f 1.0

Robb

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This is one of the *very few* images I've seen with this lens that looks great.  Well done, Sir!

—Peter.

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Wide open landscape shot wide open. The cattle herd ignored me while shooting as they know it makes no sense to shoot wide open. Anyway, this is for demonstration purpose only - but imho not too bad as it stretches the distance between far and close objects and ultimately lets the foreground appear larger. Click the image to get more details.

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