Adam Bonn Posted February 14, 2023 Share #421 Posted February 14, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) don't normally share family snaps... but what the hell (also low light) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4686177'>More sharing options...
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M Street Photographer Posted February 14, 2023 Share #422 Posted February 14, 2023 The coloring and mood is touching. An almost intimate situation. The girl is absorbed in her cell phone, the cat is attentive, why are you disturbing me, what are you planning to do? The perspective seems a bit deceptive. I see the focus in front of the cat and on the corner of the pillow on the right. That's actually not possible. How did you do that ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 14, 2023 Share #423 Posted February 14, 2023 23 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: The coloring and mood is touching. An almost intimate situation. The girl is absorbed in her cell phone, the cat is attentive, why are you disturbing me, what are you planning to do? The perspective seems a bit deceptive. I see the focus in front of the cat and on the corner of the pillow on the right. That's actually not possible. How did you do that ? The cat's wondering if I'm bringing food, because despite five years off the street he still acts like maybe tomorrow there's no food to be found.. (he's a rescue cat) Yeah I agree, I think it's the field curvature... I focused on the cat in the RF patch but then re-framed and his face is not really in focus (it's ok at web size IMO and for forum hosting, overall focus is after all a global relationship of everything in the photo) I think the fur of his thigh is where focus ended up, which isn't far off how far the pillow sticks out, so that combined with the field curvature and 50mm compressing the view a little makes it look how it is.. sometimes focus is deceptive and large objects with contrast appear more in focus than they really are, especially if the colours are quite punchy like they are here and it is quite intimate.. the cat is rather obsessed with my daughter (he follows her around and knows what time she goes to bed so he can already be there waiting for her) and my daughter adores, well all cats really, but very much this one because he's so gentle with her, lets her carry him around, use him as a pillow stuff like... he just tries to kill me if I try stuff like that with him 😅 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted February 15, 2023 Share #424 Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) Adam, Well, I haven't seen that before, if it's supposed to be field curvature, especially not in the close-up range. I took another very close look. The focus is about 5 cm in front of the cat, on the ceiling. Her left ear has a bit more sharpness than her face. And then again the top corner of the pillow. The examples I've seen from Miranda of his pre-production model were much further away. Rather landscape. Here is my serial number of 50.1.0: 07230597. To be honest, I can hardly imagine that either. I wouldn't have noticed it either if the wonderful mood of the picture hadn't held me for so long. Basically everything is ok. If you don't mind, I have a wife and 2 cats, can I try to recreate the scene and take a similar shot? But only if it doesn't hurt you or affect you negatively. Edited February 15, 2023 by M Street Photographer 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #425 Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, M Street Photographer said: Adam, Well, I haven't seen that before, if it's supposed to be field curvature, especially not in the close-up range. I took another very close look. The focus is about 5 cm in front of the cat, on the ceiling. Her left ear has a bit more sharpness than her face. And then again the top corner of the pillow. The examples I've seen from Miranda of his pre-production model were much further away. Rather landscape. Here is my serial number of 50.1.0: 07230597. To be honest, I can hardly imagine that either. I’ll have a closer look at the picture later, maybe it’s to do with the angle I’m standing at? Today I’m going to go and visit a nearby city so this will have to wait. 6 hours ago, M Street Photographer said: I have a wife and 2 cats, can I try to recreate the scene and take a similar shot? But only if it doesn't hurt you or affect you negatively. That’s a better combination than 2 wives and one cat 😂😂😂😂😂😂 No of course it doesn’t bother me at all, why would it? It’s always good to see more photos from this lens in different circumstances, so please I encourage you to do so. Edit my serial# is 07261192 and also I home coded my lens as the 50/0.95 which means LR will auto apply that profile, maybe that’s having an effect too? Edited February 15, 2023 by Adam Bonn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted February 15, 2023 Share #426 Posted February 15, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 9:05 PM, Adam Bonn said: Ok well you had the cool shallow DOF street photo, so now it's back to boring things made visually interesting via the magic of shallow DOF 😅 Shot all these yesterday. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! I haven't really edited them too much... just playing with the lens really... look closely and you'll probably see more purple haze than a Hendrix greatest hits record They'll all be F1 or F1.2 (it's hard to tell... the camera guesses the aperture and the vignette doesn't change the exposure much between the 2 F-stops) 🤣😂🤣 Hendrix and Purple haze.... nice allegory.👍 You seem to like this Cosina lens... It will be interesting to look at your posts and observe is Nokton vs Lux ASPH battle for prime position on your M10R... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted February 15, 2023 Share #427 Posted February 15, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 1 Stunde schrieb Adam Bonn: my serial# is 07261192 and also I home coded my lens as the 50/0.95 which means LR will auto apply that profile, maybe that’s having an effect too? Your lens was made later than mine. I still believe that the first batch was affected, because other owners have not reported field curvature, or almost invisible. So far I haven't noticed it, neither in the close - nor in the far range. It can also be due to the 0.95 profile of LR, which would speak for Adobe's high accuracy. I still have one thought: we already talked about using profiles on RAW in the camera. Could it be that the profile is used twice? In the camera and in LR? Unfortunately, I don't have the current version of DXO, which supports extensive camera / lens profiles. It would be interesting how the photo would look with DXO. Since it's the first photo that suggests it, I'd almost like to assume it's just a question of perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #428 Posted February 15, 2023 3 hours ago, Cobram said: 🤣😂🤣 Hendrix and Purple haze.... nice allegory.👍 You seem to like this Cosina lens... It will be interesting to look at your posts and observe is Nokton vs Lux ASPH battle for prime position on your M10R... When the honeymoon wears off I'll probably use the lux more, it may lack a stop over the CV but it's lighter and smaller with less VF blockage and (whether it's really an APO design or not..) so much less purple haze 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #429 Posted February 15, 2023 2 hours ago, M Street Photographer said: Your lens was made later than mine. I still believe that the first batch was affected, because other owners have not reported field curvature, or almost invisible. So far I haven't noticed it, neither in the close - nor in the far range. It can also be due to the 0.95 profile of LR, which would speak for Adobe's high accuracy. I still have one thought: we already talked about using profiles on RAW in the camera. Could it be that the profile is used twice? In the camera and in LR? Unfortunately, I don't have the current version of DXO, which supports extensive camera / lens profiles. It would be interesting how the photo would look with DXO. Since it's the first photo that suggests it, I'd almost like to assume it's just a question of perspective. I'm out on my day trip but I took a photo with and without the lens code applied so I'll have a look later and also a proper look at that photo again I think I have some field curvature test shots from when I bought it.. Many lens do have FC it's a fact of life.. One of the reasons I love my 50 cron is that it has a flat field of focus 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted February 15, 2023 Share #430 Posted February 15, 2023 Regarding field curvature, I have checked the image samples that Adam has shared here recently, and most of them looks as if there is no issue with FC at medium to long focus distance. However, I did see it in the background of the image with the light/lamp pole, and in post #425, the last one appears to show FC when looking at the crane in the background. Strong optical vignetting also contributes to this impression (less blur in the background near the edges and corners of the image). Fred Miranda's tests showed that the outward bending FC gets progressively stronger at shorter focus distances. Here's his series with focus set from 1.5 to 7 meters on both Leica M10-R (right) and Sony a7RIV (left): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4686997'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #431 Posted February 15, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This is before I hand coded the lens and has zero profile applied in LR. It's almost certainly a poor choice for a FC test (at the time is was a could I focus on the bench test. and apparently no I can't 😅) as neither the hedges nor the little railed fence are perpendicular to the camera.... and my not particularly well educated (about lens stuff) hunch is that without a flat field of focus, even the slightest 'at an angle' shooting will exasperate discrepancies between corner (especially on one side!) and centre performance. But happy to be corrected and learn something on this! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This is before I hand coded the lens and has zero profile applied in LR. It's almost certainly a poor choice for a FC test (at the time is was a could I focus on the bench test. and apparently no I can't 😅) as neither the hedges nor the little railed fence are perpendicular to the camera.... and my not particularly well educated (about lens stuff) hunch is that without a flat field of focus, even the slightest 'at an angle' shooting will exasperate discrepancies between corner (especially on one side!) and centre performance. But happy to be corrected and learn something on this! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4687110'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #432 Posted February 15, 2023 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This is exactly the same shot, but now with the adobe profile for the 50/0.95 applied. (the main reason I decided to code as an F0.95 is because I had -well have, but it's fuct- a 7a 50/1.1 which is coded as a 50/1 and I wanted something different to search on within my LR catalogue. Obviously if this is causing my images harm with whatever Leica applies to the DNG then it needs to be changed, if the only issue is the adobe F0.95 profile then I'll just stop applying it!) One assumes..... sooner or later adobe will have a CV 50/1 profile anyway... And sorry these didn't fit on one post Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! This is exactly the same shot, but now with the adobe profile for the 50/0.95 applied. (the main reason I decided to code as an F0.95 is because I had -well have, but it's fuct- a 7a 50/1.1 which is coded as a 50/1 and I wanted something different to search on within my LR catalogue. Obviously if this is causing my images harm with whatever Leica applies to the DNG then it needs to be changed, if the only issue is the adobe F0.95 profile then I'll just stop applying it!) One assumes..... sooner or later adobe will have a CV 50/1 profile anyway... And sorry these didn't fit on one post ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4687120'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #433 Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) Ok I dropped quality a size to fit both on one post... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Zero profile applied in LR. Camera thinks it's an F0.95. Zero profile applied in LR. Camera has no clue what lens it is. Again, a wall on a busy street isn't an ideal test subject.. maybe the light changed a little... exif thinks one was 1.7, the other F2 (both were 1.2, which was perhaps a mistake) edit: oh yeah it had a 2 stop ND filter on today! Edited February 15, 2023 by Adam Bonn Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Zero profile applied in LR. Camera thinks it's an F0.95. Zero profile applied in LR. Camera has no clue what lens it is. Again, a wall on a busy street isn't an ideal test subject.. maybe the light changed a little... exif thinks one was 1.7, the other F2 (both were 1.2, which was perhaps a mistake) edit: oh yeah it had a 2 stop ND filter on today! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4687135'>More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #434 Posted February 15, 2023 re the cat one.... (screen shots this time) well it's ISO 1600 plus about 3 stops of push, so sharp detail is a wooly concept here But Klaus is correct Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! sharpest parts are and I suspect focus and recompose RF focusing wasn't my friend here and I'm at a slight angle and the top of cushion sticks out further than it looks which is why it's more in the plane of focus. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! sharpest parts are and I suspect focus and recompose RF focusing wasn't my friend here and I'm at a slight angle and the top of cushion sticks out further than it looks which is why it's more in the plane of focus. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4687149'>More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted February 15, 2023 Share #435 Posted February 15, 2023 17 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said: This is before I hand coded the lens and has zero profile applied in LR. It's almost certainly a poor choice for a FC test (at the time is was a could I focus on the bench test. and apparently no I can't 😅) as neither the hedges nor the little railed fence are perpendicular to the camera.... and my not particularly well educated (about lens stuff) hunch is that without a flat field of focus, even the slightest 'at an angle' shooting will exasperate discrepancies between corner (especially on one side!) and centre performance. But happy to be corrected and learn something on this! Lens coding / lens profile (or absence of it) has nothing to say regarding field curvature - just to make that clear. What you are seeing, when adding a lens profile (in camera or in post) is distortion correction, which we do see in those samples. Regarding your test scene, you are basically right that this perhaps isn't the best since we don't have a background parallel to the camera sensor. However, I do see more blur in the center than in each side of the hedge, and this means outwards (or reverse) field curvature. As I said in the post above, strong optical vignetting will add to this impression. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted February 15, 2023 Share #436 Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) Whether it's best to not use in-camera correction, my understanding is that when that is done in a DNG file, you can't remove it when post-processing. If, for instance, the distortion in the lens profile you select in the camera is quite different from the lens you are using, then this will add distortion which may be difficult to deal with. For instance, if the lens you are using has a straight barrel or pincushion distortion, but the profile is for a lens with "wavy" / "mustache" distortion, then you'd wish you didn't add that profile when you have straight lines near the sides of the image. Another issue is lateral chromatic aberration. If the profile for a certain lens is very different from what your lens needs to have corrected, then this will also add issues rather than fixing them. In short, I recommend doing some critical test shots where you check for LaCA and distortion before adding a given lens profile in camera for your Nokton f/1.0. Edited February 15, 2023 by LarsHP 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #437 Posted February 15, 2023 13 minutes ago, LarsHP said: Lens coding / lens profile (or absence of it) has nothing to say regarding field curvature - just to make that clear. What you are seeing, when adding a lens profile (in camera or in post) is distortion correction, which we do see in those samples. Regarding your test scene, you are basically right that this perhaps isn't the best since we don't have a background parallel to the camera sensor. However, I do see more blur in the center than in each side of the hedge, and this means outwards (or reverse) field curvature. As I said in the post above, strong optical vignetting will add to this impression. Thanks Lars, The problem is that I'm not really testing just sharing photos I took (often of just crap and things I thought would look pretty with a shallow DOF) and then quite understandably people have questions about lens performance, questions which transcend the purpose of the photos at point of capture. The M internal lens profiles -AFAIK- bakes into the DNG stuff to do with corner shading but as you say nothing to do with correction of FC or distortion. I'm not currently seeing any reason to uncode my lens from being an F0.95 and my jury's still out on the validity of the 0.95 adobe profile... (I think it over corrects distortion a little TBH) Yes the vignette is really quite strong with this lens.. it's not the end of the world but -again as you say- you start to end up with photos that have more impression of contrast in the corners. I suspect my personal solution to both the vignette and FC will be to endeavour to leave some crop room where ever possible 🙂 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Street Photographer Posted February 15, 2023 Share #438 Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) I'm sorry I started a little avalanche. I am firmly convinced that the daughter/cat picture is a perspective thing. Basically, I would almost be in favor of not choosing a profile in the camera, but correcting it with LR. We are then on the safe side that nothing happens that we do not know or want. If you are concerned with the lens designation, you can name some in the M10R and save them on the SD card without storing a camera profile. I do it the same way, and since the number of possible storage spaces is not enough for me, I take old, very small SD cards (500MB / 1 GB) and save 5 lens designations per SD card. What has the advantage that these are not deleted after formatting the card where the photos are taken. Depending on which lens I then use, the SD card is inserted beforehand and the saved lens names are loaded with standard settings. Yes, I know it's a bit cumbersome, but a way to name lenses for the Exif. It's a matter of organizing what lens names you save. For me there are 3x 50 mm and 2x 35 mm on one card and that's the one I use most often. Maybe we should load DXO LAB 6 as a test and see what happens with the camera / lens profiles (M10R+ VC 50 1.0). And yes, I understand that field curvatures are not corrected by the profiles. On the other hand, I don't know what's "tricked" into the software. Edited February 15, 2023 by M Street Photographer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #439 Posted February 15, 2023 2 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: Maybe we should load DXO LAB 6 as a test and see what happens with the camera / lens profiles (M10R+ VC 50 1.0). And yes, I understand that field curvatures are not corrected by the profiles. On the other hand, I don't know what's "tricked" into the software. Does DXO support the CV 50/1? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted February 15, 2023 Share #440 Posted February 15, 2023 I'm starting to question my wisdom of using adobe's profile for the 0.95... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! full scene Pretty sure that bicycle wheel is more egged shaped WITH the adobe profile applied... Looking at the images with no adobe profile on either but one the camera thinks it's a 0.95 and the other it thinks it's uncoded I'm not seeing anything troublesome... 8 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: I'm sorry I started a little avalanche. I am firmly convinced that the daughter/cat picture is a perspective thing. Not at all, these are perfectly reasonable questions 9 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: If you are concerned with the lens designation Well I only own two non-Leica lens, the ZM21/2.8 (which is coded as per one of the Elmarits) and the CV50/1. So on the M10R I can technically get away with no coding (as long as my last used manually entered lens was the Leica 50/1. This will bugger me up on the M9 though (which IIRC doesn't have that ability, it's either manual or coded, not the M10x feature of last used manual if not coded otherwise coded) I need to either not care or care enough to use a tripod and set up a controlled test. This whole hey let's treat my kitschy test shots as studio scenes serves no one (you, me, anyone reading) no real benefit I think.... I mean sure if someone's looking at my posts and trying to get a sense of what the lens renders like that's valid and worthwhile, but no more than that I think. I can't imagine Fred Miranda's testing is wrong about FC and (assuming they do) whenever phillipreeve get round to testing it they'll probably reach a similar conclusion... 18 minutes ago, M Street Photographer said: On the other hand, I don't know what's "tricked" into the software. IIRC every time the subject comes up there's a debate without resolution about what exactly Leica's internal M lens profiles bake into the DNG. (To further stir that muddy water might I humbly suggest that it's even conceivable that this answer has changed since the M8 to the M11 and the cameras in-between....) =========== I've had this lens for 18 days now and I've taken over 1500 images with it (largely of kitschy crap) I suspect I need a break.... (readers of this thread looking at my images probably do too 😂) Today I finished my trip with the 28 and F8 and a zone focus and it was like a slight relief not to have to worry about focus 😅 I'm very happy with it though... I wanted to treat myself to a decent 50/1 that wasn't shit quality, but didn't break the bank, that I'd enjoy the IQ from and would be sufficiently different to my other 50s to justify owning, but something that I'd accept would never be my most used lens and IMHO the CV50/1 nails all of that and then some. (If I didn't have the Lux I'd have more seriously considered the CV 50/1.2) (I still have some GAS for the CV 50 APO 🙄 but I wanted to make an irrational purchasing choice for a change) 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! full scene Pretty sure that bicycle wheel is more egged shaped WITH the adobe profile applied... Looking at the images with no adobe profile on either but one the camera thinks it's a 0.95 and the other it thinks it's uncoded I'm not seeing anything troublesome... Not at all, these are perfectly reasonable questions Well I only own two non-Leica lens, the ZM21/2.8 (which is coded as per one of the Elmarits) and the CV50/1. So on the M10R I can technically get away with no coding (as long as my last used manually entered lens was the Leica 50/1. This will bugger me up on the M9 though (which IIRC doesn't have that ability, it's either manual or coded, not the M10x feature of last used manual if not coded otherwise coded) I need to either not care or care enough to use a tripod and set up a controlled test. This whole hey let's treat my kitschy test shots as studio scenes serves no one (you, me, anyone reading) no real benefit I think.... I mean sure if someone's looking at my posts and trying to get a sense of what the lens renders like that's valid and worthwhile, but no more than that I think. I can't imagine Fred Miranda's testing is wrong about FC and (assuming they do) whenever phillipreeve get round to testing it they'll probably reach a similar conclusion... IIRC every time the subject comes up there's a debate without resolution about what exactly Leica's internal M lens profiles bake into the DNG. (To further stir that muddy water might I humbly suggest that it's even conceivable that this answer has changed since the M8 to the M11 and the cameras in-between....) =========== I've had this lens for 18 days now and I've taken over 1500 images with it (largely of kitschy crap) I suspect I need a break.... (readers of this thread looking at my images probably do too 😂) Today I finished my trip with the 28 and F8 and a zone focus and it was like a slight relief not to have to worry about focus 😅 I'm very happy with it though... I wanted to treat myself to a decent 50/1 that wasn't shit quality, but didn't break the bank, that I'd enjoy the IQ from and would be sufficiently different to my other 50s to justify owning, but something that I'd accept would never be my most used lens and IMHO the CV50/1 nails all of that and then some. (If I didn't have the Lux I'd have more seriously considered the CV 50/1.2) (I still have some GAS for the CV 50 APO 🙄 but I wanted to make an irrational purchasing choice for a change) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/327343-voigtlander-50mm-f1-vm/?do=findComment&comment=4687241'>More sharing options...
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