SL2S: restrictions for artistic expression, Capture One ICC profile to test

[hansvons]

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I've shot with my SL2S for 9 months now and exposed far above 10k images. Most of them got culled, but some end up in Capture One for grading and finalising to ship to clients or family & friends. I don't use camera JPEGs but don't like to spend much time grading the camera's DNG either because a long session on one image leads mostly to over-sexed grades and a perceived loss of authenticity when revising the results later. 

I created profiles in Capture One that work as presets to avoid that. But even those don't do it because they leave room to change everything, and the tinkering goes on. So what to do?

Back in the day, when I shot most of my work on 35mm, I was restricted to the particular gamma curve of that film stock and, of course, the colour rendition. There was room for manipulation but only in the constraints that come with the medium. Today's digital cameras left all that burden behind, have fabulous DR and whatnot. Still, pictures became not better in an artistic sense. There indeed is a potential for a whole book to discuss that exhaustively. I'm sure many feel differently, but, nonetheless, for me, this is a significant issue.

In short, I want convincing restraints that give a great foundation to develop pictures quickly that will outlast time. And I like Leica's approach to colour, which in itself is a welcome constraint (that's one reason why I gave up on Fuji - too much choices, none will do it).

Because print film gamma curves always gave me that secret punch I so much like, I thought of creating my own ICC profile for Capture One. That, of course, includes that said gamma curve, somewhat defying the power of raw. But I wanted constraints. This is what I did:

• I took a print film (Kodak 2383) conversion LUT in Rec709 colour space from my film postproduction world. Rec 709 is essentially sRGB with a steeper gamma curve.
• I applied to that LUT a meaningful CDL that distributes contrast and saturation to work kind of out of the box in C1.
• I made sure that the LUT uses the full gamut.
• Stripped the colour information. That way, Leica's colour interpretation is retained.

The result is an ICC camera profile that mimics the gamma curve of a print film working nicely with C1's Linear Curve or Film Standard Curve. The latter shows even more punch. When WB is set to Daylight preset you'll get roughly what film stock thinks is white. IMO, there's no need to make use of the tint slider, being inside the house the only meaningful reason (windows always colour light with some green tint), but Cloudy makes often some sense, so does Fine Weather With Shade, or Tungsten.

If you are interested, you can download the ICC here: https://jubelmeldung.de/nextcloud/index.php/s/eKZwxkWbfMK9CQp

In most cases, you will have to bring dow exposure and raise the shadows. 

And this is the respective how-to from C1: https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002409057-How-do-I-install-ICC-profiles-

I'd like to know what you think.

Below, 2 images of the same DNG. The first uses the Kodak gamma-only film ICC (exposure was lowered, shadows risen and CT set to Daylight). The second image uses the C1 Curve Film High Contrast and the SL2S StandardPro ICC. It took some tinkering to come into the film curve's ball park. But reaching the first image's depth in the background takes ages to achieve. So I only adjusted levels and contrast.

 

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[feelssadman]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:48 PM, hansvons said:

I'd like to know what you think.

Just had a quick read and I think you did a pretty good job there. Thanks for giving us access to the profile!

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[Photoworks]

I took a look at a few shots in capture on, I understand where you are trying to go.

I notice that you need to apply lots of highlights and shadow recovery to have them look normal again, but often still not be able to recover high-lights.

I think you profile need work. If you like to send me you raw file I will take another look.

 

Cheers

[hansvons]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

I notice that you need to apply lots of highlights and shadow recovery to have them look normal again, but often still not be able to recover high-lights.

You are right; the profile loses 1 or 2 stops in the highlights. At the weekend, I will dig into this again.

That has to do with slope/power settings I applied to make the profile work better out of the box, which it does when the scene's contrast is relatively low and the exposure sits slightly on the brighter side. But when the contrast is high, chances are high that you'll lose information in the highlights.

When Leica established the option to expose in favour of highlights, they matched my exposing habit when shooting raw on the Alexa. So, most of my shots don't show that issue. But again, this isn't everyone's way of exposing.

Besides, I'm not looking for the best DR. 

And this I why: in high dynamic scenes, recovering blacks/shadows and highlights to retain all of the information leads to an HDR-like look when a film-like contrast is applied. With the great DR modern cameras offer, such a look becomes more and more of a commodity. Definitely not my cup of tea.

The profile needs some work in the blacks too, they are a tad lifted, which pays into the "vintage" feel. However, I like to have a choice.

 

Thanks for your feedback!!

 

[Reggie]

Isn’t this what Cobalt Profiles effectively do? I admire the knowledge and dedication you have to make the film emulation work but it seems like Cobalt may have created the solution for you already. 

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, Reggie said:

Isn’t this what Cobalt Profiles effectively do? I admire the knowledge and dedication you have to make the film emulation work but it seems like Cobalt may have created the solution for you already. 

Unfortunately not. These are C1 Styles and not camera profiles (ICC). This is the difference: Styles are saved grades you or someone else created. They are completely editable. There's nothing wrong with Styles in the sense of having the choice to alter the grade on any parameter at any time. Before I started digging into the story of ICCs, I used self-created Styles to cater to my needs. Camera profiles, on the other hand, are an "instruction" on how the camera' raw file should be transferred to RGB: camera raw -> camera profile ICC -> RGB source for further grading. 
In my quest to emulate the look of printing to film, I need the gamma curves of the respective film stock (print film of the motion picture industry) in the 3 channels RGB because the look of film isn't only a specific contrast curve but 3 specific contrast curves each in the respective channel. This can be mimicked in the C1 curve editor. But I want a fixed starting point and not a complex "grade" for quick and straightforward grading in the sense that less is more.

There's a whole Industry offering photographers and filmmakers their grades, LUTs and whatnot. As it seems, there's a considerable market. Many are aimed at users who want to achieve a quick look without bothering too much about colour timing, hence the plethora of choices offered by Cobalt and others. When I read Kodak Porta on packages, I'm unsure if Kodak Porta is inside or if it's more of an idea of what Kodak Porta could look like. I want to know for sure, hence my private investigation.

[hansvons]

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On 12/10/2021 at 1:50 PM, Photoworks said:

I notice that you need to apply lots of highlights and shadow recovery to have them look normal again, but often still not be able to recover high-lights.

I spent some time on fixing the issues. Now black starts at 0, and white maxes out a 1. Due to the pronounced roll-off in the white, which naturally comes with film gamma curves, I'm still losing roughly 2 stops. But this is the downside when printing to film and can't be avoided. 

Depending on the scene's contrast, there's still some recovering of the shadows and highlights needed. The concept makes more sense if one understands these ICCs as slide film (which they essentially are, based on cine print stock one has to "grade" through). The white point sits at 6500K.

Kodak 2383: https://jubelmeldung.de/nextcloud/index.php/s/b9RirZjEXZKE6Kb

Fuji 3513: https://jubelmeldung.de/nextcloud/index.php/s/TsjTwAMdXbCBB82

In both ICCs, I stripped the film stock's colour information. That way, the Leica's colour isn't touched. But due to the curve's different RGB values, the colour is unevenly distributed on the respective contrats curves creating that specific film stock character.

 

[Photoworks]

Not sure I can get anything usable or natural. I suppose you want a stylize look anyway if you are picking 2383

One you have to apply all the highlights and shadow exposure correction you get what you may think. I see a heave color shift to green in skin tones.

I suppose it is like crushing the tones in rec709 and trying to recover them after that with other tools.

when you say color is not touched? what does that mean to you. when you bring it in capture one colors are been interpreted by the program , if you apply you ICC profile, does instruction are been used, adding that ICC contrast will affect saturation and luminosity

I think the only way that color don't change is by applying no color correction ICC profile and using Linear mode.

BTW, if you load the ICC profiles in the application folder, they will be lost when you update the program. Probably it should be better in User> Library > ColorSync>Profiles

 

 

 

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[Slender]

Gee the before one is much better lol....


I am using old VSCO film emulation for LR taylor made for the M9 from back in the days with my SL2 files I am supper happy with those.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Slender

[hansvons]

3 hours ago, Slender said:

Gee the before one is much better lol....

Perhaps that is due to the tint setting? I don't see green casts. 

[Slender]

😅 Look at all the "details" in the skin that lovely lady would rather not see so exagerated on the right.... besides to my eyes she has now the orange tint matt finish of Donald Trump... again I want to emphasize, to my eyes (and Retina Monitor). We are talking about the post just above mine.... Not your first one

I imagine this is the clarity or sharpness setting, thus independant from tint/wb, that exagerates wrinkles and skin grain.... but something is very off in the skin look anyway, IMHO.... Unless you are a white bird in a gated Florida retirement community that puts a heavy emphasize on fake tan, that doesnt look right at all.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Slender

[Photoworks]

12 hours ago, Slender said:

😅 Look at all the "details" in the skin that lovely lady would rather not see so exagerated on the right.... besides to my eyes she has now the orange tint matt finish of Donald Trump... again I want to emphasize, to my eyes (and Retina Monitor). We are talking about the post just above mine.... Not your first one

I imagine this is the clarity or sharpness setting, thus independant from tint/wb, that exagerates wrinkles and skin grain.... but something is very off in the skin look anyway, IMHO.... Unless you are a white bird in a gated Florida retirement community that puts a heavy emphasize on fake tan, that doesnt look right at all.

that is what you get when you ad a heavy contrast curve.

I with you in the lines, everything else was at zero. you can just shoot Jung kids and teens and hope they have no pimples. The Summicron Sl 75 doesn't help.

I think the better ICC profile should not change the image so much, the profile from C1P are good and reflects Leica colors very close. If you want  a style added it is better apply on a separate layer and tail down if needed.