What's with the Leica M1

[kivis]

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I have been around Leica M's for about a thousand years and always assumed that a Leica M1 and a Leica MD were essentially the same. Way wrong I was and am. The M1 is an actually a rangefinder? Where does it fit in? How did I miss this? Are there any users/owners out there?

[adan]

Viewfinder only (35/50) - no rangefinder for focusing. Note that the second small RF window is blocked off with metal and the "M1" engraving. [ M1 ]

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/10/13/the-forgotten-leica-the-m1-by-konstantinos-besios/

Recall that during the M1's production life (1959-64) Ernst Leitz GMBH was still a fully-functioning scientific optical company - and build some of the Ms for use on their own microscopes or other laboratory gear (where a rangefinder would be pointless). Or with the Visoflex pseudo-SLR attachment, for use with long tele lenses or macro lenses (e.g. 65mm Elmar f/3.5)

Now, Leica also made MD/MDa/MD2 cameras (not to be confused with today's M-D digitals) that were completely "blind" - no VF or RF at all.

So I have wondered why Leica bothered with the "halfway step" of the M1 - viewfinder but no RF.

But apparently 1) it could be converted to a full-focusing M2 at the factory, since the top plate already had the window cutouts in place, and 2) there were some technical applications where a viewfinder-only with scale or fixed-focus lenses could be used.

At one point (not sure of the recent history) the German Postal Service was also in charge of Germany's telephone system, and 'phone service was metered (just like water, power, or natural gas, etc. today in the US). Some of the M1s were built with a fixed-focus 35mm lens, and the "telephone meter readers" carried them around to photograph meter readings once a month (or whatever).

Stick the lens up to the telephone metering gauge outside the house, at a preset distance, (11" or so) and press the shutter - one house after another.

I've always liked the idea that there were these "blue-collar" Leica Ms - just doing a simple job of work, day and day out, with no pretensions to art.

The M1 was discontinued as soon as Leica introduced a "real" SLR in 1964 (the Leicaflex).

Therre are some folks here who use them  - I'm not one of them, but I expect they will come by to explain how they use theirs. With a Visoflex, or scale-focusing/"hyperfocal focusing" with wide-angles. Or with an add-on rangefinder in the hot-shoe.

I guess if one was a starving photographer in 1963, and really wanted "a Leica M," one could buy one of these for less than an M2, and start shooting.

And then when cash allowed, add an accessory RF in the top shoe.

And then when more cash allowed, get it upgraded to a full M2.

Edited December 6, 2021 by adan

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[Kriehuber]

Its my profession to say the following as soon someone mentions the M1:

Leica still converts the M1 to a full Rangefinder TODAY! They build in a full MA / MP Rangefinder. ( 0.58 / 0.72 / 0.85 ) Wich gives you all the modern Rangefinder / Frameline features. Then you have a M2 Body with a MP / MA Rangefinder.  I think thats pretty cool! ( and something some could / should consider ) 

[kivis]

1 hour ago, Kriehuber said:

Its my profession to say the following as soon someone mentions the M1:

Leica still converts the M1 to a full Rangefinder TODAY! They build in a full MA / MP Rangefinder. ( 0.58 / 0.72 / 0.85 ) Wich gives you all the modern Rangefinder / Frameline features. Then you have a M2 Body with a MP / MA Rangefinder.  I think thats pretty cool! ( and something some could / should consider ) 

Is this for real? How can one find out about this?

[Kriehuber]

30 minutes ago, kivis said:

Is this for real? How can one find out about this?

Yes for real! I found out trough asking the Customer Service directly. It actually makes sense that they still do this modification, the procedure is the as changing the rangefinder on a MA / MP / M7 / M6 etc. so its not really a "special task" but something they do regularly  on other cameras. The just take the old viewfinder out put the new one in. 

Why did I even got the idea to do this ? I got my hand on a couple M1s as a gift from a family member. I knew I wouldn't have used them as they are stock and I knew that Leica did this service back when the cameras where new. So I figured I should just ask them.

Since I prefer the M2 Body over the MA / MP Body but always would pick the newer rangefinders / viewfinders over the older ones, these are my favorite Ms and they see way more use then my MAs. ( I also love my Abrahamsson M2 Rapidwinders ) 

Wouldn't I have gotten the M1s as a gift, I would never even thought about this, but now I am really happy that I have these cameras. They are what I always thought would be my "perfect" M, M2s with a complete MP rangefinder.

[jerzy]

do you have estimation how much doi they charge?

[Kriehuber]

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56 minutes ago, jerzy said:

do you have estimation how much doi they charge?

yes, they told me the following estimate ( I am told this includes the generell stuff they always do when getting a camera in for service ) for upgrading the finder on a Rangefinder M (  MA etc ) to 0.58 or 0.85 would cost approximately  900 Euro. Adding a 0.58 / 0.72 / 0.85 finder to a M1 would cost approximately 1000 Euro. Keep in mind that we are talking about the same finder inside the modern MPs.

The 0.58 finder is my favorite so most of my Ms have this finder now. It was totally worth it for me! But I also don't care about the collectibility of Collectors Items or Special Editions. 

Should you (or someone else for that matter ) be interested in getting your Rangefinder upgraded, you can write me a DM. I would forward you the contact at Leica I use to don't got through a Local Leica Store etc. That makes everything way easier, especially when not from Germany.. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Kriehuber

[Al Brown]

To add to the confusion, there are some very early M1 "blind" cameras around S/N 980300-980400 without a finder window, looking like MDs.

[nitroplait]

Could be interesting to know if they would do an MD/MDa with the added cost of a top plate? I have a mint MDa that I got back when they could be picked up for peanuts.

[Kriehuber]

5 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Could be interesting to know if they would do an MD/MDa with the added cost of a top plate? I have a mint MDa that I got back when they could be picked up for peanuts.

From what I understand, the special thing about the M1s that allows this mod is that they have the coupling mechanism that connects the lens with the rangefinder completely installed. So a lens coulf also trigger different framelines when installed. Just the optical part of the rangefinder ( prisms etc) is missing.  
All the other MD style cameras only have the bare mount.

I would imagine that this either makes the modification either impossible or way more expensive. 

[nwphil]

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Edited December 6, 2021 by nwphil

[hiphopopotamus]

 

On 12/6/2021 at 8:26 AM, Kriehuber said:

upgrading the finder on a Rangefinder M (  MA etc ) to 0.58 or 0.85 would cost approximately  900 Euro. Adding a 0.58 / 0.72 / 0.85 finder to a M1 would cost approximately 1000 Euro. Keep in mind that we are talking about the same finder inside the modern MPs.

This is extremely interesting, especially as a 0.58 MA or MP was on my list to pick up in the relatively near future.

How does the build quality of the M1 compare to the newer MA or MP (aside from the age question)? What are the major differences in materials/components?

 

[Al Brown]

So here is the final answer on the conversion pricing and lead time from Customer Care at Leica Camera in Wetzlar:

"Thank you for your mail. It is possible to upgrade the rangefinder of Leica M1. The cost will be 1200,-€ excl. VAT. You are very welcome to send your device to our service facility. After receipt, we will thoroughly inspect the device and send you a notification. Please be advised that our current turn around time is about 16 weeks after an order confirmation. I hope this information will help. If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / kind regards, Customer Care."

[kivis]

Other off beat mods done by Leica.

https://www.lhsa.org/blog/2021/08/stealth-leica-factory-upgrades

 

[Kriehuber]

2 hours ago, Al Brown said:

So here is the final answer on the conversion pricing and lead time from Customer Care at Leica Camera in Wetzlar:

"Thank you for your mail. It is possible to upgrade the rangefinder of Leica M1. The cost will be 1200,-€ excl. VAT. You are very welcome to send your device to our service facility. After receipt, we will thoroughly inspect the device and send you a notification. Please be advised that our current turn around time is about 16 weeks after an order confirmation. I hope this information will help. If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know. Mit freundlichen Grüßen / kind regards, Customer Care."

Looks like they have raised their prices, I didn’t pay 1200€ for my conversions. Or maybe different prices for international customers because of shipping, customs  etc ? 
They charged me a little less then 1000€ just for the rangefinder upgrade and that included all vat in Germany. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Kriehuber

[Kriehuber]

4 hours ago, hiphopopotamus said:

 

This is extremely interesting, especially as a 0.58 MA or MP was on my list to pick up in the relatively near future.

How does the build quality of the M1 compare to the newer MA or MP (aside from the age question)? What are the major differences in materials/components?

 

The build quality is the same as the M2, when you get a serviced model it will be on par with a MA / MP  ( some people would say even better ) 

[Al Brown]

11 minutes ago, Kriehuber said:

Looks like they have raised their prices, I didn’t pay 1200€ for my conversion.

Yeah and the M1 price has gone up as well... They used to be 200-300 euros and nobody wanted them. I got my mint MDa for 190 euros a few years ago, with insert bottom plate and a spare regular plate.
According to todays prices of M1 (starting at around 800 euros on eBay) the camera + conversion will cost you 2250 euros with VAT minimum. You can get quite a lot for that money in the M3/M2/M4/-2/-P/M5 range... even the odd M6 pops up occasionally for this amount.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Al Brown

[adan]

Does Leica still actually offer the 0.58x or 0.85x viewfinders at all?

They seem to have completely dropped the à la carte program (as of 2019) - and even then, the viewfinder magnifications were no longer a part of the listed options.

[Kriehuber]

4 minutes ago, adan said:

Does Leica still actually offer the 0.58x or 0.85x viewfinders at all?

They seem to have completely dropped the à la carte program (as of 2019) - and even then, the viewfinder magnifications were no longer a part of the listed options.

Yes they do, I just go a 0.58 finder in one of my MAs installed this year! 
They just change them through their normal customer care program. 
But as discussed in different threads, contacting Leica directly in Wetzlar changes a lot and they will offer you way more options then your local Leica store or distributor. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Kriehuber

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