OhOh, future of CL?

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, Kim Dahl said:

I will not put a  dkr (€) in SL lenses.  But I do not want to sign that the same will happen for new M lenses… 

But… no I do not think I dare spend money on the new apo M which I strongly considered.  Because if one day I can not focus properly with my M. I would at least be sure they worked with Nikon or Canon.

That you could focus properly with your CL3. That is the whole point. 

[EUSe]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb cpclee:

If so that would be a bit disappointing.  Yet it really won't have any true impact for me as I will continue to be well served by my CL for years to come.  Love this camera.

Was anything implied about the TL line?

No, I am afraid not. If I remember it well, I had asked Daniel about the future of APS-C on the whole. Peter Karbe, who also gave a talk, did not mention new APS-C lenses,. But he seems to like the existing ones, though. The lena designer teams do not make the decisions (alone).

Edited November 4, 2021 by EUSe

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[SoCalLeicanator]

Does anyone else agree with me that dpreview deserves a little blame in this?  They completely panned the CL and didn't even bother doing a full review.  I would imagine they are the most visited review site.  

[cpclee]

On one hand, I can see market stigma about APS-C / obsession with FF might have prevented the CL from becoming a big seller.  On the other hand, I think more years of sensor development may change the balance of opinion: if we agree that most shooters have little reason to go beyond APS-C from a quality perspective, it will only become more so in the coming years as 50, 100 mpx APS-C sensors become available.  If I were Leica, I'd continue to develop the APS-C line for at least a few more years to see where the market settles.

[Louis]

4 minutes ago, cpclee said:

On one hand, I can see market stigma about APS-C / obsession with FF might have prevented the CL from becoming a big seller.  On the other hand, I think more years of sensor development may change the balance of opinion: if we agree that most shooters have little reason to go beyond APS-C from a quality perspective, it will only become more so in the coming years as 50, 100 mpx APS-C sensors become available.  If I were Leica, I'd continue to develop the APS-C line for at least a few more years to see where the market settles.

I wish you were Leica!  

[LocalHero1953]

The hints suggest that it is APSC that will not be part of Leica's future, but that they know there is a market for small capable cameras. If true, then I guess there could be a compact full frame L-mount somewhere on the horizon. I know there is some call for a M-mount EVF body, but I don't see it happening: it limits the market - far more likely to be L-mount, which can obviously take M lenses. The problem is that, however small you make the body, AF lenses for a full frame sensor are bound to be bigger, making the whole package much bigger than a CL and it's lenses (TL lenses are already bigger than FF M lenses). Maybe they'll bring out a new range of compact FF L-mount lenses. Maybe they'll make the body in carbon fibre to make it lighter.

Just sad fantasies when there is only disappointing news around. 

[cpclee]

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44 minutes ago, cpclee said:

If so that would be a bit disappointing.  Yet it really won't have any true impact for me as I will continue to be well served by my CL for years to come.  Love this camera.

Was anything implied about the TL line?

I practice what I preach and just now ordered a minty 18-56!  

I remember going through the death of the R system years ago and sold off my entire R system.  It was a mistake I'd come to regret and eventually I bought back an entire R9 system (less the DMR).  Digital is a little different that once the manufacturer pulls the plug eventually even getting batteries or repairs will become difficult.  But that will be years from now and won't prevent me from enjoying the CL in the mean time. 

[lct]

A compact FF camera could fix the problem with an L mount, a big sensor and a crop mode. I don't own TL lenses but i would not sell them if i did. 

[graphlex]

Such as a Leicafied FP-L. 

[lct]

17 minutes ago, graphlex said:

Such as a Leicafied FP-L. 

Indeed. Would mean that the idea of an M-mount mirrorless is dropped or postponed i fear but a compact FF camera a la Sigma FP-L could be used easily by APS-C users thanks to its big sensor.

Edited November 5, 2021 by lct

[Michael Markey]

After all this turmoil and uncertainty I would not invest in a new Leica product no matter what it promised .

Other manufacturers think through their strategies and build on existing models allowing there customers to transfer seamlessly even to the extent of including adapters in any new package .

Leica seem all over the place ,don`t help their customers and seemingly abandon lines leaving customers high and dry.

Lets hope that we are all wrong but at present it looks like a case of " “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.” 

[AdHox]

5 hours ago, Michael Markey said:

Other manufacturers think through their strategies and build on existing models allowing there customers to transfer seamlessly even to the extent of including adapters in any new package. 

Leica seem all over the place, don`t help their customers and seemingly abandon lines leaving customers high and dry.

Every camera manufacturer walks away from established systems when it suits their commercial strategies. At the end of the day, companies are responsible to their shareholders; their responsibility to us as consumers is more limited.

And camera manufacturers almost never say that a system is finished.

I was a Minolta user for a long time. When I eventually went digital, that meant I bought Sony. Sony clearly lost interest in the older A-mount many years ago, with the last new body for that system being the A99ii in 2016, and the last "new" lenses being Mk II versions of the Sony Zeiss 24-70/2.8 and 16-35/2.8, released in 2015. I knew when I bought my A99ii that it was very probably the last hurrah for A-mount, but it suited my needs at the time. I sold it and my 24-70 earlier this year, but you can still find people on Sony forums hoping that there'll be one more body ... I don't mind that if it means that I have somebody to whom I can sell my remaining lenses. 😉

I know a few disgruntled former Olympus E-system users who took years to accept that M43 was where Olympus saw its future. 

Nikon and Canon have both abandoned systems too. I don't think either has been accused of walking away from their DSLR systems (yet), but how old is Canon's 5D4, 6D2, or 7D2? (2016, 2017, & 2014 respectively). Maybe the Canon & Nikon DSLR users have been abandoned without them noticing. 😟

Obviously I hope that there will be a CL2 at some time. I don't have a view on whether a CL2 is overdue, as (i) 2020 & 2021 have not been normal years, so development of a CL2 being delayed would be understandable; & (ii) my CL does everything that it needs to as well as it did when I bought it (or even better when considering the FW updates).  

If there is still no CL2 in a few more years, then I'll probably just keep using the CL while it still does what it does.

[Michael Markey]

4 hours ago, AdHox said:

Every camera manufacturer walks away from established systems when it suits their commercial strategies. At the end of the day, companies are responsible to their shareholders; their responsibility to us as consumers is more limited.

And camera manufacturers almost never say that a system is finished.

I was a Minolta user for a long time. When I eventually went digital, that meant I bought Sony. Sony clearly lost interest in the older A-mount many years ago, with the last new body for that system being the A99ii in 2016, and the last "new" lenses being Mk II versions of the Sony Zeiss 24-70/2.8 and 16-35/2.8, released in 2015. I knew when I bought my A99ii that it was very probably the last hurrah for A-mount, but it suited my needs at the time. I sold it and my 24-70 earlier this year, but you can still find people on Sony forums hoping that there'll be one more body ... I don't mind that if it means that I have somebody to whom I can sell my remaining lenses. 😉

I know a few disgruntled former Olympus E-system users who took years to accept that M43 was where Olympus saw its future. 

Nikon and Canon have both abandoned systems too. I don't think either has been accused of walking away from their DSLR systems (yet), but how old is Canon's 5D4, 6D2, or 7D2? (2016, 2017, & 2014 respectively). Maybe the Canon & Nikon DSLR users have been abandoned without them noticing. 😟

Obviously I hope that there will be a CL2 at some time. I don't have a view on whether a CL2 is overdue, as (i) 2020 & 2021 have not been normal years, so development of a CL2 being delayed would be understandable; & (ii) my CL does everything that it needs to as well as it did when I bought it (or even better when considering the FW updates).  

If there is still no CL2 in a few more years, then I'll probably just keep using the CL while it still does what it does.

That is undoubtably true but not every manufacturer places longevity of their lines center stage as part of their marketing .

 

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Louis said:

People who buy CL would never buy an M rangefinder instead.  Two completely different cameras!

Where do new m rangefinder customers come from?  which cameras are the same as the M?

[Steven Lane]

I have never brought into a camera system with much more than a cursory eye on what the future holds for it. A camera purchased a decade or more ago will still give the same results today. When Olympus announced the death of the OM film camera system, I went out and brought new OM3TI and 4Ti bodies and continued to enjoy the system for years. Ditto for their four thirds system. I have owned my CL for less than a year. If there is no replacement for it, so what? I will continue to use it along with my TL2 and enjoy what I have.

Having written that, it does not take a large leap of faith to imagine a Q style body reworked for the L mount. The Q2 is clear evidence that Leica can produce small weather sealed 35mm sensor size bodies. Some work around the lens mount to adopt L lenses and we have a product that exploits SL and TL lenses. Seems an obvious evolution of, or enhancement to the Q line to me. If something like this did emerge, I would probably consider picking one up. But hey, if it doesn’t I am still a satisfied user.

[jaapv]

It has been said before - the Q series is small because it uses an integrated lens-shutter-sensor module.

[RM8]

8 hours ago, AdHox said:

Every camera manufacturer walks away from established systems when it suits their commercial strategies. At the end of the day, companies are responsible to their shareholders; their responsibility to us as consumers is more limited.

And camera manufacturers almost never say that a system is finished.

I was a Minolta user for a long time. When I eventually went digital, that meant I bought Sony. Sony clearly lost interest in the older A-mount many years ago, with the last new body for that system being the A99ii in 2016, and the last "new" lenses being Mk II versions of the Sony Zeiss 24-70/2.8 and 16-35/2.8, released in 2015. I knew when I bought my A99ii that it was very probably the last hurrah for A-mount, but it suited my needs at the time. I sold it and my 24-70 earlier this year, but you can still find people on Sony forums hoping that there'll be one more body ... I don't mind that if it means that I have somebody to whom I can sell my remaining lenses. 😉

I know a few disgruntled former Olympus E-system users who took years to accept that M43 was where Olympus saw its future. 

Nikon and Canon have both abandoned systems too. I don't think either has been accused of walking away from their DSLR systems (yet), but how old is Canon's 5D4, 6D2, or 7D2? (2016, 2017, & 2014 respectively). Maybe the Canon & Nikon DSLR users have been abandoned without them noticing. 😟

Obviously I hope that there will be a CL2 at some time. I don't have a view on whether a CL2 is overdue, as (i) 2020 & 2021 have not been normal years, so development of a CL2 being delayed would be understandable; & (ii) my CL does everything that it needs to as well as it did when I bought it (or even better when considering the FW updates).  

If there is still no CL2 in a few more years, then I'll probably just keep using the CL while it still does what it does.

You DO realize I hope that Leica AG is NOT publicly listed and has just ONE majority shareholder, the Austrian Andreas Kaufmann (52%) and ONE major other shareholder, the US investment fund Blackstone (44%)

[cpclee]

2 hours ago, RM8 said:

You DO realize I hope that Leica AG is NOT publicly listed and has just ONE majority shareholder, the Austrian Andreas Kaufmann (52%) and ONE major other shareholder, the US investment fund Blackstone (44%)

I think Blackstone divested their stake a few years ago. 

[cpclee]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

It has been said before - the Q series is small because it uses an integrated lens-shutter-sensor module.

Yes and the integrated module can be very expensive to repair / replace.  I learned my lesson with the X1. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[nicci78]

Look at Nikon Z9. Future SL3 and Q2 can have über fast CMOS BSI stacked sensor with no need for mechanical shutter at all. 

It will save a lot of room and make a kind of small QL feasible.