OhOh, future of CL?

[Kim Dahl]

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But if you're watching his last videos, he's bought SL - so maybe he's given up APSC ? 

[huwm]

I'm pretty sure he was quite taken with the Lumix S5 at one time

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[Driften]

6 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

But if you're watching his last videos, he's bought SL - so maybe he's given up APSC ? 

From his newer videos, He still uses his M's, CL, and SL. It does seem like he doesn't use the CL as much as he used to any more. It also seems like He is focusing more on film these days with some digital mixed in. More of his instagram posts are film scans currently.

[hoppyman]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:27 PM, cpclee said:

Not to distract from your point, but the 23/2 TL was likely designed with compactness being a high priority.  A better comparison would the 35/1.4 TL vs the 50/1.4 SL.  Their MTFs look very, very similar.

I agree that compactness had to be a high priority in the design of the 23. I am happy using it on my CL. I think that the APO Summicron SL 35 is superb on the SL2.; for the way that I have used them (wide open at short distances). I haven't used either of those f/1.4 lenses.

My speculation regarding the CL APSc system is that it appears that it won't be developed further.

 I don't know if there will be a new more compact full frame L mount camera.
If there is I don't know if it would be to replace the CL in their range and its price point  or replace the SL2  or both or neither.

I don't know if a new compact body (if to replace the CL) would need a new range of lenses either or if they would be in a price range similar to the lenses for the CL.
The SL lenses don't make sense to me for the CL on size weight and price. I guess that we shall see what develops, if anything.

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

I was sorting out lenses for use with the SL2-S yesterday evening, and found that I had the Summicron-SL 35 mounted on the CL instead of the Summilux-TL 35. I must have been using it without noticing. Clearly I hadn't noticed a problem of size or weight. So if Leica produces a new compact full frame replacement for the CL then they could get away with the current primes for the moment. I have tried the SL zooms on the CL and find them unbalanced. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[geoffreyg]

While there is all this doom and gloom about "the future of APS-C at Leica" - it is also possible that we are just faced with the typical Leica "we're not telling you what we are doing" situation. And the past two years (lest we not notice) have been difficult for any manufacturer. 

I'm not saying the CL and TL lens group are at the forefront of Leica's planning, but it might just be that what we are responding to is silence, possibly nothing more. I for one have a hard time thinking that Leica would leave this, having developed such a great line of lenses. 

[dkCambridgeshire]

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24 minutes ago, geoffreyg said:

While there is all this doom and gloom about "the future of APS-C at Leica" - it is also possible that we are just faced with the typical Leica "we're not telling you what we are doing" situation. And the past two years (lest we not notice) have been difficult for any manufacturer. 

I'm not saying the CL and TL lens group are at the forefront of Leica's planning, but it might just be that what we are responding to is silence, possibly nothing more. I for one have a hard time thinking that Leica would leave this, having developed such a great line of lenses. 

All camera manufacturers are facing up to lower sales caused by 'photographers' who "make do" with smart phones ... If Leica has developed a new APS-C camera it needs a 'market' ... which is likely not sufficiently buoyant to warrant Leica APS-C production in the numbers required to '£$€ break even' ... The relatively few Leica Forum members who'd welcome a new CL2 are insufficient to justify production of eg at least 10K cameras. 

[Stuart Richardson]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:01 PM, Minolta TC-1 said:

I've been using an X-Pro2 for 5 years now and love the IQ and the film simulations. But I'm not taking it where I'd like to because of its size. I had an Olympus OM system a long time ago, then moved to a Zorki with a Summitar, an Olympus E-P1 and a Pana LX3. I thought the X-Pro2 would feel familiar because it's the same size as the OM, but the stint with smaller cameras has left its mark. The Leica CL is very appealing. I'd get the 18 and/or 23 and use my Summitar with a converter. Or if that doesn't work out, the Sigma 45, which I think would combine well with an 18 and something in between (e.g. adapted 28mm). Of course, the age and lack of clarity of direction of the APS-C L system are worrying.

Are there any alternatives? The Q2 seems nice but it's also very big. The SL2(-S) is waay too big. M cameras are exactly the same size as OM or X-Pro2. I'm a natural sceptic against Sony and the Sigma FP is a film camera... It seems like for me, the CL2 just needs to happen!

You asked for alternatives...the Ricoh GRIIIx is the best use case for APS-C, in my mind. The GRIII if you want a wider lens. But compared to the other cameras mentioned, it is the only one that is truly pocketable, and it has a superb lens with built in stabilization. Of all of them, it is the best pocket camera for bringing everywhere. I have the Q2 as well, and though it takes better pictures, it is much larger and bulkier, so hard to compare. I think given your username, you should give it a try. It is very cheap compared to all of them, and it is the best pro photographer's snapshot camera of the bunch. It is the camera I wish Leica made instead of the TL.

[Michael Markey]

41 minutes ago, geoffreyg said:

While there is all this doom and gloom about "the future of APS-C at Leica" - it is also possible that we are just faced with the typical Leica "we're not telling you what we are doing" situation. And the past two years (lest we not notice) have been difficult for any manufacturer. 

I'm not saying the CL and TL lens group are at the forefront of Leica's planning, but it might just be that what we are responding to is silence, possibly nothing more. I for one have a hard time thinking that Leica would leave this, having developed such a great line of lenses. 

Also its difficult to see how they could develop the system.

I know that we all have different requirements but ,at least, for me its a pretty decent well rounded set up as it is .

It could only be a case of tweaking and maybe in the current climate that`s not possible .

[dkCambridgeshire]

2 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

Also its difficult to see how they could develop the system.

I know that we all have different requirements but ,at least, for me its a pretty decent well rounded set up as it is .

It could only be a case of tweaking and maybe in the current climate that`s not possible .

Adding IBIS to be competitive with e.g. Sony requires more than mere 'tweaking' ... and a CL successor also requires GPS

[Michael Markey]

38 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Adding IBIS to be competitive with e.g. Sony requires more than mere 'tweaking' ... and a CL successor also requires GPS

Yes there is that although I`ve never found it an issue myself but it would be useful .

I doubt that they can effectively compete with Sony .

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Adding IBIS to be competitive with e.g. Sony requires more than mere 'tweaking' ... and a CL successor also requires GPS

For some perhaps. I have never wanted GPS.

[Minolta TC-1]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

You asked for alternatives...the Ricoh GRIIIx is the best use case for APS-C, in my mind. The GRIII if you want a wider lens. But compared to the other cameras mentioned, it is the only one that is truly pocketable, and it has a superb lens with built in stabilization. Of all of them, it is the best pocket camera for bringing everywhere. I have the Q2 as well, and though it takes better pictures, it is much larger and bulkier, so hard to compare. I think given your username, you should give it a try. It is very cheap compared to all of them, and it is the best pro photographer's snapshot camera of the bunch. It is the camera I wish Leica made instead of the TL.

Thanks for the thoughts. The Ricoh doesn’t have an EVF, which for me is kind of a deal breaker. I really like the form factor of the Leica T, for example, but it has the same issue. I also dislike the pop-up EVF of the RX1R ii. If they had taken out the pop-up mechanism, the EVF would have been always available and probably better. 

I like the idea of a smaller full frame camera with an L mount, if it comes with smaller full frame lenses as well. The current pancakes are APS lenses. 
 

I’m also looking at the possibility of combining a Q2M with my iPhone 13Pro for color. Most of my serious photography is B&W anyway. I’m testing the iPhone at the moment with a third party app. If results are usable, I could concentrate on a slightly less portable (though not SL2 level) solution like the Q2 or a smaller full frame with one or two smallish lenses. Or stick to my Fuji, get some smaller lenses for that and permanently fix it in Acros mode.

[Michael Markey]

42 minutes ago, Minolta TC-1 said:

Thanks for the thoughts. The Ricoh doesn’t have an EVF, which for me is kind of a deal breaker. I really like the form factor of the Leica T, for example, but it has the same issue. I also dislike the pop-up EVF of the RX1R ii. If they had taken out the pop-up mechanism, the EVF would have been always available and probably better. 

I like the idea of a smaller full frame camera with an L mount, if it comes with smaller full frame lenses as well. The current pancakes are APS lenses. 
 

I’m also looking at the possibility of combining a Q2M with my iPhone 13Pro for color. Most of my serious photography is B&W anyway. I’m testing the iPhone at the moment with a third party app. If results are usable, I could concentrate on a slightly less portable (though not SL2 level) solution like the Q2 or a smaller full frame with one or two smallish lenses. Or stick to my Fuji, get some smaller lenses for that and permanently fix it in Acros mode.

I`ve seen some lovely shots made with the iPhone 13 Pro .

[Kim Dahl]

7 hours ago, hoppyman said:

I agree that compactness had to be a high priority in the design of the 23. I am happy using it on my CL. I think that the APO Summicron SL 35 is superb on the SL2.; for the way that I have used them (wide open at short distances). I haven't used either of those f/1.4 lenses.

My speculation regarding the CL APSc system is that it appears that it won't be developed further.

 I don't know if there will be a new more compact full frame L mount camera.
If there is I don't know if it would be to replace the CL in their range and its price point  or replace the SL2  or both or neither.

I don't know if a new compact body (if to replace the CL) would need a new range of lenses either or if they would be in a price range similar to the lenses for the CL.
The SL lenses don't make sense to me for the CL on size weight and price. I guess that we shall see what develops, if anything.

 

 

It is - in my opinion - the biggest problem for Leica not to be successful that they do not publish a roadmap.  I know it's hard.  Just look at the SL summichrome lenses which have been delayed several times.  But that means that - even loyal - buyers are very reticent about L Mount.

[Stuart Richardson]

I have both the 13 Pro and the ricoh and they are quite different. The files from the Ricoh are way better in terms of resolution, lens quality and lack of noise, but the DR of the iphone due to is auto hdr stacking is a lot better. The color out of the iphone camera app is really great these days, but the files look quite oversharp in comparison to the Xs I was using before. There is some sort of new clarity effect applied. The iphone is the better choice if you only do things for the web, but if you print the Ricoh is better. I completely understand the need for an EVF (which of course the iphone doesn't have either), but in this case, for this kind of photography (a snapshot camera to bring along), I do not find it an issue. The Ricoh (and any purpose built camera) is also so much quicker and more ergonomic for photo taking and it is small enough that you really can just slip it in a pocket and forget about it until it is needed, which is not the case even for a camera like the X100 series. For Iceland at least, touch screens like the phone are a huge pain, as you either need to get special gloves (that generally wear out), or you need to take off your gloves every time you want to take a picture.

[Minolta TC-1]

Good points, Stuart. There’s a long thread about the (potential lack of) quality of the iPhone 13pro on Macrumors. The general takeaway is that usually it oversharpens, frequently it plasters over skin tones and from time to time it unpredictably uses the wrong lens resulting in digital zoom. Hence my use of a third party app, which I’m currently comparing to apple’s standard app. It’s frequently nearly equal (except for Apple using more saturated colors vs the neutral tone I have the other app on) but when Apple misses, it’s not pretty. So it’s an exercise I’ll be doing for myself for a few months to really come to a well founded conclusion. If the results are decent, I may consider myself all settled for color. But we’ll see. I have a soft spot for the Ricoh compacts and considered them a few times but never ended up buying one!

[Stuart Richardson]

Another option is the Leica CL, haha. Sorry if we got so far off topic! But I do think all of these "small camera questions" are in a way related. The CL is a great camera, but if they were to update it, I also think that updating the lenses to support it would also be required. I suspect that this is also part of the issue...updating the CL also means updating several of the lenses to the standard of the other Leica primes. I know people are fond of them, but I for one never really liked the 23mm Summicron. Though it has nice bokeh and colors, the detail level was never great in my experience. The 24mm Sigma I now use on L mount is only slightly larger and significantly sharper over the APS frame. It seems the 18mm also has a less than stunning reputation. So in order to really show off the CL, you need better lenses, which in the current moment also means bigger lenses, which defeats the point of the system. So that is one area where I would have liked Leica to do better. They are certainly capable of it, given their M lenses.

[Michael Markey]

15 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Another option is the Leica CL, haha. Sorry if we got so far off topic! But I do think all of these "small camera questions" are in a way related. The CL is a great camera, but if they were to update it, I also think that updating the lenses to support it would also be required. I suspect that this is also part of the issue...updating the CL also means updating several of the lenses to the standard of the other Leica primes. I know people are fond of them, but I for one never really liked the 23mm Summicron. Though it has nice bokeh and colors, the detail level was never great in my experience. The 24mm Sigma I now use on L mount is only slightly larger and significantly sharper over the APS frame. It seems the 18mm also has a less than stunning reputation. So in order to really show off the CL, you need better lenses, which in the current moment also means bigger lenses, which defeats the point of the system. So that is one area where I would have liked Leica to do better. They are certainly capable of it, given their M lenses.

That`s interesting .

I started to use my 23 a lot recently on the SL2s ... seems fine but I might just look at some of the alternatives .

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[Stuart Richardson]

9 minutes ago, Michael Markey said:

That`s interesting .

I started to use my 23 a lot recently on the SL2s ... seems fine but I might just look at some of the alternatives .

Perhaps it is just my copy? But it seems clear in the MTF, as was shown above as well (somewhere back in the thread someone posted the MTF of the 23mm Summicron vs the 35mm APO SL.)