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Hypothetical Question ??????? this should stir the pot


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1 hour ago, lct said:

M sensors are designed for M lenses only. The least compromise the better.

But M lenses vary in the way they project the image as demonstrated by the 21mm Super-Angulon. So depending on the M lens you are using, there will be some compromise; probably least with lenses designed for digital M cameras though. Of course, if absolute image 'quality' is not of the highest concern then this isn't a problem. I use an M adapter on both the SL and Sony A series. For many/most shots any differences will almost certainly pass most viewers of the resulting images by.

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andybarton

Mods have been busy moderating this afternoon. Posters (with multiple registrations and names, all from the same desk) and posts have been removed, and banned as appropriate. Unfortunately, it is not possible to block IP address ranges, as there could be legitimate members posting from the same area. This person will continue to be dealt with appropriately, as I am sure that they have nothing better to do than re register here and troll. They have been trolling the forum for a while, a

LocalHero1953

Sorry - it was a tired sarcastic remark arising from one glass of red wine too many. The "it can't be an M if it doesn't have a rangefinder" statement comes up time after time, as if it made a hoot of difference to what cameras sell or don't sell. I can just imagine the discussion among the gnomes of Wetzlar "Oh f###, we can't make that camera, even thought it looks like an M, takes M lenses, and even walks like an M, and would sell like hot cakes, because it doesn't have a f###ing Messsucher in

adan

Ennnh. I'm 67+, suffering from glaucoma, macular degeneration, emergent cataracts, and rapidly-shifting optical prescriptions (due to the meds required for the first). Nevertheless, I can still focus a 135 f/4 and a 75mm f/1.4 consistently and sharply with the Leica(M10) rangefinder. Without embarassment (except when *I* screw up - which isn't the fault of the camera ). A little incipent primary tremor is the least of my problems, since I don't photograph "dead, motionless" stuff, but

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Considering that my M9 was purchased for $8K and sold for $3K and my S(006) was purchased for $16K and copies on ebay now sell for around $3K, no, I will not buy any future digital Leica.  

I know that "digital decay" is common on all digital equipment but with the high cost of "buy in" on Leica it's a very poor investment.

On the other hand my MP is worth more than I paid for it as was the M7 I sold for the MP.  I love the results from the S(006) and will keep it until it dies  but analog Leica is the future for me.

Edited by Sailronin
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2 hours ago, markrelova69 said:

Don’t tell me you also believe the Leica M is made in Portugal…. 

Here is a report of Leica Portugal factory tour:

https://www.fdtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/80FDTimes-LEICA-PortugalFactoryTour.pdf

Erwin Puts writes:

... it is a myth that modern Leica cameras are made in Wetzlar. Final treatment and assembly is done in Portugal. Only the last stage of the assembly occurs in Wetzlar. The main components were manufactured in Portugal since the late 1980s when old Wetzlar machines were transferred to Portugal.

 

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29 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

All I'm doing is questioning how many of the exact same digital M models do we need with incremental interior changes only? Time for them to do something semi-radical - it may sink or swim, but at least it would give some choice (don't like the body changes of the M12? Well, there always the M11, M10-R, etc etc).

And of course it wouldn't be 'like a Sony' - it would be like a Leica. 

I don't know that there's room for semi-radical between conservative (M) and radical (SL). They've already made the decision that if you want a 'modern' camera, you either use your old-style lenses with an adapter, or buy the new lenses, much as they did when they switched from the LTM to the M system nearly 70 years ago.

Edited by Anbaric
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1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

In the first minute you can see how much has already been done in Portugal before the camera arrives for completion in Germany. The chassis, top and bottom plates, rangefinder, shutter, shutter speed dial, shutter release and other controls, hotshoe, most of the electronics and the rear LCD are already in place, but not the sensor (or the Red Dot). The camera arrives in a loosely assembled state, and is then partially disassembled for installation of the sensor, followed by calibration, final reassembly and finishing. Perhaps this has changed since the M9 era, but I don't see anything in the M10 video inconsistent with them following the same process today. Note that the M9 was also labelled 'Made in Germany'. The work that is done in Germany must be legally sufficient for that label. Why anyone should care is another matter. The same high standards apply to all Leica's factories, just as they did to Leitz Canada back in the day.I think the factory in Portugal deserves a lot more credit. My pocket binoculars are entirely made there, but the 'Portugal' label is much more discreet than the 'Germany' label on the cameras.

This is a video of the German factory (with German people) making a Leica M9 from beginning to end. 

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35 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

...So all rangefinders can be called M cameras, right?

Not quite, Simone.

All you can really say is that the majority of rangefinder cameras can be described as having been made to incorporate some form of a messsucher design. Once you start to get in to M-cameras you are talking about one particular model-series (M-mount) from one particular manufacturer.

Leica's earlier LTM model II and III bodies, for instance, can not accurately be described as being Leica M cameras.

Philip.

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2 hours ago, Matlock said:

You obviously haven't watched the Leica Video showing the cameras being made in the Portugal plant. The cameras are made in Portugal and final checking is carried out at Wetzler.

Not just checking - final assembly, checking and shipping. Portugal makes the subassemblies, but the top cover and other machined parts,  and pressed parts like lens hoods,  come from  from Weller Feinmechanik, a separate company on the Leitz Park. 

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3 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Not just checking - final assembly, checking and shipping. Portugal makes the subassemblies, but then, the top cover and other machined parts come from Weller Feinmechanik, a separate company on the Leitz Park.

I was aiming for a simple and straight forward answer to a Troll rather than going into depth. However the fact remains that Leica's are, in the main, manufactured in Portugal.

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Mods have been busy moderating this afternoon.

Posters (with multiple registrations and names, all from the same desk) and posts have been removed, and banned as appropriate. Unfortunately, it is not possible to block IP address ranges, as there could be legitimate members posting from the same area.

This person will continue to be dealt with appropriately, as I am sure that they have nothing better to do than re register here and troll. They have been trolling the forum for a while, as many of you have noticed.

Please report any "suspicious" trolling behaviour.

That is all.

Thanks

 

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30 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

No problem, I'll just buy something else.

The only thing hypothetical about this supposition, IMO, is the price.  It's coming. 

For years, folks have repeatedly mentioned a Q ILC, which to date has been a total nonstarter. Those clamoring for it in the past didn't seem to realize that the Q body has no shutter, it's in the lens assembly, nor was it designed to accommodate one.  But the situation, as it often does, has changed.  The Z9 intro suggests that with a stacked CMOS unit, it's now possible to produce a pro-level camera sans mechanical shutter.  Given Leica seems to be moving to Sony sensors, it's shelved any notion of an EVF based RF mechanism and every time this subject comes up someone says buy an adapter and a Sony, my bet is that we will see such a camera with IBIS, shutter speeds in excess of 1/16000th, etc within the next year or two.  Such a camera is inevitable, though I suspect it will fetch far more than $3500, likely $5500 at a minimum.  I also suspect that even some of the most militant RF users will be forced to at least consider it when the M hits 12K a copy a couple of years from now. 

Edited by Tailwagger
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5 minutes ago, andybarton said:

Mods have been busy moderating this afternoon.

That is all.

 

It is weird that there is something in a hypothetical camera that makes people behave in a way that they would never dare to do face to face...🙄

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4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It is weird that there is something in a hypothetical camera that makes people behave in a way that they would never dare to do face to face...🙄

Was that newbie the same as last time a couple of weks ago? Same attitude, same pattern, same insults, same ignorance.

Edit: Have just read Andy's full post. Thanks mods :)

 

Edited by ianman
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Guest BlackBarn

The perpetual need for wanting enhanced technology in, for what is simply a tool, can also be an excuse for lack of adaptive skill…..an extension of a ‘bad craftsperson always blames his tool’ but in this case ‘a not so good craftsperson always wants their tool to do something more or different because if it did their product would be so much better.’ 

Well the ‘more’ is already here enabling the ‘so much better’  if you perceive things that way.  It might not be in the ‘M’ format but that wouldn’t really matter to a craftsperson as the make and model of the tool doesn’t matter, it’s the REAL need for the specific enhanced offering which does. Be it a Sony Fuji Nikon SL CL Q etc. The craftsperson recognizes the need - sometimes - for a different tool so they simply pick it up and work with it regardless. They don’t expect it to feel the same or perform the same as their other tools  - they never could or should because they are there for different reasons.

The problem emerges when the belief is that the tool makes the craftsperson  - understandable because  that save time thinking, looking and acquiring skill. The emphases partially switches from ones brain, sensitivity and eyes to the technical brain sensitivity and optics of the tool.  Why do you want that?? Well because if not I would miss the shot. What shot?  Well the 120th of a second thing which just happened which we couldn’t see well enough let alone normally hold my hand steady enough to take it.

Why did you think that was important to capture?  Because it won’t happen gain and that’s why I need a camera which does everything. Ah….so you have this camera so you can take photos of everything which happens? No but I have to be ready for when ‘it’ happens  but it’s not just about the camera, I’ll select the ones which the camera does well. How many of those do you think there would be? Well the camera takes about 100 - 200k photos a year and probably I select about 100 which are good….which are keepers. 

Ok….well if you ever consider taking less photos  and want to spend more time looking and selecting moments and thinking and looking again and then refining those moments…like me for example….  I take around 300 photos a year and hope to have maybe 10 of those which I particularly like. My best photographic days are when I go out without my camera but just go out to look compose and feel. Later I revisit but take my camera. Or sometimes there are those special moments which I just have to photographically engage with….and sometimes they are so so special they don’t deserve a photograph…..

Well  if you want to slow down then I could recommend a camera called the Leica M. It’s a tool which doesn’t get in the way and encourages the craft of looking. People are trying to change it but luckily they have old ones which are mechanical and they can’t change….they are even better.

 

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1 hour ago, pgk said:

But M lenses vary in the way they project the image as demonstrated by the 21mm Super-Angulon. So depending on the M lens you are using, there will be some compromise; probably least with lenses designed for digital M cameras though. Of course, if absolute image 'quality' is not of the highest concern then this isn't a problem. I use an M adapter on both the SL and Sony A series. For many/most shots any differences will almost certainly pass most viewers of the resulting images by.

IQ is certainly the highest concern for me. I can accept compromises on IQ at Sony prices, not Leica's. YMMV.

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