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Should You Sell Your Leica M10 Now?


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1 minute ago, roverover said:

I would tend to agree that M10D is for sure really "old school," however, M10, M10P, M10R etc generally speaking, have been sold in far greater numbers.
That being said, all M10 cameras potentially could become sought-after cameras if the bottom plate disappears and users want the older look but with
the most modern features and technology that was available. I didn't buy an M10R as a future collectible, but should it turn to to be, that's fun too.

"Old school" does not sell cameras. If Leica would offer two M11 versions, with and without removable bottom,  most would likely buy the version without removable bottom.

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7 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

While I share the notion of retaining the 10R, I'm less optimistic that the new EVF will be backward compatible, at least in the sense of offering any advantage over the current one. I.E. it might work on both the 10R and M11, but I suspect that if it provides 6Mpx on the 11, it wont be anything other than the current 2.4MPx on the 10. 

These are interesting and fun Leica times. The M10 Visoflex is pretty good in my opinion and i like the fact that it "tilts." When it came out, I felt it was a huge
advancement over the previous M240 EVF and using it is a more enjoyable experience for me although this current one was not backwards compatible as we know.
I assume they will update the EVF for the next M iteration and was hoping this time it might be backwards compatible with optical improvements, but realize
I am being "wishful."  ...but we will all know soon !

 

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1 hour ago, roverover said:

These are interesting and fun Leica times. The M10 Visoflex is pretty good in my opinion and i like the fact that it "tilts." When it came out, I felt it was a huge
advancement over the previous M240 EVF and using it is a more enjoyable experience for me although this current one was not backwards compatible as we know.
I assume they will update the EVF for the next M iteration and was hoping this time it might be backwards compatible with optical improvements, but realize
I am being "wishful."  ...but we will all know soon !

 

Totally agree, the 240 was rather primitive... not to mention the ungodly blackout times. We can always hope. Actually, I'm more concerned about the other way around. I'm more interested in the 020 working on the M11.  Forget about the cost, who knows how long it will be before you can get a hold of the new EVF?

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On 11/14/2021 at 6:01 AM, KFo said:

...I took a look at Oz´s work on his website.  I can see why he desperately wants technology to save him.  The portraits on his website are completely mundane.  His commercial work forgettable (like most).  I would, if wanting to provide constructive criticism say his work is: too distant, no organic feel, no closeness, no grit in his images whatsoever.  I don't look at them at say to myself this must be Oz.  So yes, more megapixels for him, but it won't help.  As @adan says Oz understands his markets, and clearly his skills are sufficient for that...

I have tried to find some relevance or value in Oz Yilmaz's didactic commentary on YouTube, but have consistently come up short.

Knowing when to remain silent is at least as important as knowing when to mount your pulpit and let fly.

JMHO...

Edited by Herr Barnack
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So ... I suppose I should be interested in what Leica announces and when, for its next M camera. However I am still satisfied with my prewar Barnack cameras 😀.

 

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My personal experience is that after the M9 was released I was able to get a good price on a used M8 which I used for a couple of years. Then I sold the M8 and purchased an M9 also second hand. I shot with the M9 for about 7 years as my "go to" camera for any travel and street photography.  I sold the M9 to move to a Sony A7R4 with 60 megapixel sensor, and guess what, 99% of the time up to A3 size prints I can't tell the difference (especially using the Leica M lenses on the A7R4). It's very rare that I really need to crop so much that the jump from 18 mp to 60 mp is noticeable.

As with any luxury product there is marked depreciation on a new purchase as soon as it's used for the first time, add in the pixel race and that depreciation is more severe still.  If your M10 is producing great images, why sell it.  If it's not producing great images, it's not the camera's fault (sorry).  The question is how often do you NEED the extra pixels, and what is it worth to have them?

Edited by Sailronin
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Thinking about the coming M11, it is possible that Leica may or may not immediately discontinue M10 production, that decision
may be based on factors they have yet to determine, so perhaps the 2 models may overlap for awhile or the M10 may get factory discounted,
production stopped and M11 will supplant it quickly.
I remember when the M10 arrived, M240 production was not immediately turned off, as i recall they continued in the lineup for quite some time,
so time will tell.

 

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47 minutes ago, roverover said:

Thinking about the coming M11, it is possible that Leica may or may not immediately discontinue M10 production, that decision
may be based on factors they have yet to determine, so perhaps the 2 models may overlap for awhile or the M10 may get factory discounted,
production stopped and M11 will supplant it quickly.
I remember when the M10 arrived, M240 production was not immediately turned off, as i recall they continued in the lineup for quite some time,
so time will tell.

 

it is possible, after all they will likely continue to produce most parts (body, batteries, chargers etc) for the M10M for a couple of years

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1 hour ago, roverover said:

Thinking about the coming M11, it is possible that Leica may or may not immediately discontinue M10 production, that decision
may be based on factors they have yet to determine, so perhaps the 2 models may overlap for awhile or the M10 may get factory discounted,
production stopped and M11 will supplant it quickly.
I remember when the M10 arrived, M240 production was not immediately turned off, as i recall they continued in the lineup for quite some time,
so time will tell.

 

The standard M10 models have already been discontinued, while the M10-R and M10 Monochrom remain.

Jeff

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7 hours ago, roverover said:

Thinking about the coming M11, it is possible that Leica may or may not immediately discontinue M10 production...

The question in my mind is why has Leica seemingly thrown in the towel with respect to utilizing bespoke sensors/processors?  If one had to hazard a guess, beyond lowering the cost of production, we've seen numerous chip shortages over the past two years that continue to persist. It's not hard to imagine, given they have to maintain parts supplies for servicing existing units, they simply can't acquire enough chip supply to keep the existing models in production with sufficient volume to make it worthwhile. 

Recall that 10M was released well in advance of the R (at the beginning of the pandemic) and reports were that 10Rs were in the field for at least a year prior to release. Given the take rate of the monochrom is presumably far lower than that of the R, my guess is that chip difficulties have been problematic for a while now and forced the out of typical order of introduction.  The MM likely was released first as it stood a far better chance of meeting demand and not pissing customers off over excessive wait times... something they've been quite sensitive to since the M10 release.  So if I had to bet, I'd wager the M10M, being a lower volume model, will soldier on (perhaps until there's an M11M), but the 10-R could be delisted fairly quickly. 

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On 12/16/2021 at 9:46 AM, Tailwagger said:

The question in my mind is why has Leica seemingly thrown in the towel with respect to utilizing bespoke sensors/processors?  If one had to hazard a guess, beyond lowering the cost of production, we've seen numerous chip shortages over the past two years that continue to persist. It's not hard to imagine, given they have to maintain parts supplies for servicing existing units, they simply can't acquire enough chip supply to keep the existing models in production with sufficient volume to make it worthwhile. 

Recall that 10M was released well in advance of the R (at the beginning of the pandemic) and reports were that 10Rs were in the field for at least a year prior to release. Given the take rate of the monochrom is presumably far lower than that of the R, my guess is that chip difficulties have been problematic for a while now and forced the out of typical order of introduction.  The MM likely was released first as it stood a far better chance of meeting demand and not pissing customers off over excessive wait times... something they've been quite sensitive to since the M10 release.  So if I had to bet, I'd wager the M10M, being a lower volume model, will soldier on (perhaps until there's an M11M), but the 10-R could be delisted fairly quickly. 

M10-R delisted quickly? Plenty of older M generations are still going strong to this day, and with the M10-R joining the ranks of high megapixel cameras, I think it has plenty of life ahead. Unless the M11 obliterates the M10-R sensor with low-light performance (I'm talking about Sony level of low-light performance, not one stop more of "usability") then it's going to be a pretty level playing field. That is, unless GAS is the biggest deciding factor.

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52 minutes ago, kamek said:

M10-R delisted quickly? Plenty of older M generations are still going strong to this day, and with the M10-R joining the ranks of high megapixel cameras, I think it has plenty of life ahead. Unless the M11 obliterates the M10-R sensor with low-light performance (I'm talking about Sony level of low-light performance, not one stop more of "usability") then it's going to be a pretty level playing field. That is, unless GAS is the biggest deciding factor.

Is Sony really that better than M10 or M10-R?

Comparison a7rIV vs. M10 at ISO 6400

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1 hour ago, kamek said:

M10-R delisted quickly? Plenty of older M generations are still going strong to this day, and with the M10-R joining the ranks of high megapixel cameras, I think it has plenty of life ahead.

You missed the point. The 10-P, R and M as well as the S3, CL, TL and Q2 all share the same Maestro II processor. If, due to the pandemic, there is insufficient supply of processors to support those lines they are forced to either limited production across all of them or kill some in favor of the others.  So if you're Leica and have a limited supply of parts what do you keep, what do you kill?  The S3 is relatively new and production is so limited it does't buy you much to kill it other than a lot of bad blood with the current customer base. The TL already bit the dust, the CL becomes the lone APS-C offering.  The Q sells well and at this point there is no replacement for it. The M10s, however, are now supplanted by a new model, the M11.  So what gets dropped?  

And lest ye think this is too speculative, it's worth noting that Sony just killed several of its cameras stating that part supply problems made it impossible to continue producing them. 

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3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Is Sony really that better than M10 or M10-R?

Comparison a7rIV vs. M10 at ISO 6400

The A7rIV looks terrible in low light versus the Sony A9 for example, but it's 24 vs ~60 megapixels. The A7RIV looks about the same as the M10-R in my books. I've had both cameras but not at the same time. 

I think a 60mp M11 will look noticeably worse out of camera at higher ISOs than the standard M10 for example, but when you run the files through noise reduction software the higher megapixel image still wins. You have more pixels to work with, so the noise reduction algorithms tend to do a better job. Going from the 24mp A9 to the 50mp A1, the A1 files looked worse at ISO12,800 when you first open it, but because there is more information in the image it cleans up better than the A9 files with less artifacting from the de-noise process.   Even just downsampling the image to 24mp makes a huge difference in the noise - but it's really not necessary with today's de-noise software. 

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2 hours ago, Stevejack said:

The A7rIV looks terrible in low light versus the Sony A9 for example, but it's 24 vs ~60 megapixels. The A7RIV looks about the same as the M10-R in my books. I've had both cameras but not at the same time. 

I think a 60mp M11 will look noticeably worse out of camera at higher ISOs than the standard M10 for example, but when you run the files through noise reduction software the higher megapixel image still wins. You have more pixels to work with, so the noise reduction algorithms tend to do a better job. Going from the 24mp A9 to the 50mp A1, the A1 files looked worse at ISO12,800 when you first open it, but because there is more information in the image it cleans up better than the A9 files with less artifacting from the de-noise process.   Even just downsampling the image to 24mp makes a huge difference in the noise - but it's really not necessary with today's de-noise software. 

There seems to be very little difference in noise between A9II and a7rIV when comparing the outputs of the same resolution:

a9 II vs. a7rIV at ISO 6400

More megapixels do not cause more noise unless you look at 100% (pixel peeping). In my book, the comparison only makes sense when looking at outputs of the same resolution.

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9 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 

There seems to be very little difference in noise between A9II and a7rIV when comparing the outputs of the same resolution:

a9 II vs. a7rIV at ISO 6400

More megapixels do not cause more noise unless you look at 100% (pixel peeping). In my book, the comparison only makes sense when looking at outputs of the same resolution.

Yep, agreed - at the same resolution there should be little to no difference. I shoot lots of birds in flight (previously with the A9 and now with the A1) and I very often need to crop in to 100%, and DXO Prime is very good at cleaning up the noise (far better than Lightroom). Running the file through Topaz Sharpen will bring back the details again. When the A1 launched there were lots of people saying it was worse at high ISO and that they were keeping their A9... no idea how they processed their files but give me more information to work with any day.

Granted I rarely crop my files with the M10-R but storage is cheap and more information in your image is only ever a good thing in my books.

To put this view into context though, with the A1 on some occasions I'll shoot 15,000 50-megapixel files in an outing. Maybe 10% of those files will make it off the card and onto my hard drive and I'll cull that down further as I process the files. So when I go out with the Leica, and come back with maybe 30-40 shots on the card... it's a drop in the ocean compared with my usual workflow. I'd be all over a 100mp Leica.

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On 12/15/2021 at 4:44 PM, SrMi said:

In my book, M10-D is the only "Old School" style digital M model: winder level, removable bottom, no rear LCD.

Old school?

Using an app just to use a bloody self timer!! dont make me laugh.

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20 hours ago, Stevejack said:

...I think a 60mp M11 will look noticeably worse out of camera at higher ISOs than the standard M10 for example...

It likely won't because we're changing generations of sensors to BSI. It's going to be a 50/60mp version of the SL2-S. So it might have more noise than the SL2-S at 1:1/100% viewing, but it's not like a 50/60mp version of the M10 or even M10-R sensor technology.

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