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Should You Sell Your Leica M10 Now?


Max EPR
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On 10/29/2021 at 11:37 PM, Max EPR said:

I just watched this video by Oz Yilmaz.  Oz suggests due to the "megapixel-wars" the M10's value is going to take a major price drop as soon as the M11 is released. Oz says the "M10 will be obsolete" The M10 is a great camera. The M11 needs to be significantly improved for me to consider upgrading to a M11. What is your opinion?

 

Why do you watch that stuff?

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On 10/30/2021 at 5:37 PM, Max EPR said:

I just watched this video by Oz Yilmaz.  Oz suggests due to the "megapixel-wars" the M10's value is going to take a major price drop as soon as the M11 is released. Oz says the "M10 will be obsolete" The M10 is a great camera. The M11 needs to be significantly improved for me to consider upgrading to a M11. What is your opinion?

 

I'm kinda sick of listening to this dude on YouTube. His takes aren't anything unique and just seems like a cashed up dude who bought into Leica and is just obsessed with the brand. I don't learn, or see anything new that he adds to the field. There is just a generic opinion he generates that is easily found on products online or elsewhere. Also maybe I am being overly critical here, but he is just painful to listen to. 

What he has to say on the subject, I'd care very little for.

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I also don't know who the you tuber is and don't care, not going to watch the video but I will say I always find it amusing when people claim that something is 'obsolete' just because something newer comes along.

The idea is just completely moronic.

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Guest BlackBarn

I think there are logic bombs  in videos like that.  For instance -  once supplies have settled down - I would suggest you would loose more when buying an M11 the moment you walked out of the retailers door than you would in waiting a year or so before selling your M10. 

There is also the suggestion that everyone’s camera has to produce an income as he talks about keeping up with user competition. So there is no ‘value’ placed on personal enjoyment as if his book keeping comes without a column for the debits.  You’ve gone on holiday, drunk a bottle of wine or had a meal and only the cost is taken into account . There is no balancing value placed on the fact you might have met your life’s partner over a meal….or cemented friendships or when taking photos you have created the time and space to think more deeply on whatever or refined your self expression.
 

For sure money has to come into the equation but some people also work to create  moments of space …room so other things can happen. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

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Oz reviews Leica M mount, cameras and lenses, L mount and medium format S mounts. I personally find his reviews useful as they give me a perspective. You can also view his works, the courses he conducts and let them speak for themselves. 

He also provides suggestions as to which leica M lenses are worth the bang for the bucks and which non-Leica branded lenses are good value for money alternatives. Everyone is entitled to his opinion but if we need sources of reviews to make a purchase decision, don’t we look at Ken Rockwell, Steve Huff and forums for reviews? For the least all of them come forward and make their effort to give their take on an equipment. 

On this remarks on 24MP M10, he is just saying now is probably a fulcrum point which pivots away from 24MP as a benchmark MP due to developments in previous very established DSLR top brands into the mirrorless space. The RF which is always a fringe product catering for a certain community is also forced into the MP war. He is just making a point for those who bought first hand into the M10, see normal depreciation but would otherwise also see further depreciation due to a possible pivot to higher Mp.

For me, i always buy used and 1, 2 or 3 cameras behind the latest. I care about the latest but i cannot afford the latest. So this is good for me to know that i will be able to afford an M10 at some point soon. 

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I just took a look at that review.  I'd never heard of the guy but my curiosity was piqued.

So first off, I think he dramatically over estimating the short term and under estimating the long term.  It's typical for technology changes and advancements.  The M11 will arrive eventually but it isn't going to be a market crash for existing digital M.  For gods sake, people are still using M8s!  Although the idea that a Leica Camera is an investment is ridiculous unless you make the worst imaginable choices with your money as an alternative.

This is not an inflection point in the mega pixel wars.  40-60-100 mp have been available whether Leica has cashed in on that or not.   And it's not our problem whether Leica moves up the megapixel food chain or not.  

I took a look at Oz´s work on his website.  I can see why he desperately wants technology to save him.  The portraits on his website are completely mundane.  His commercial work forgettable (like most).  I would, if wanting to provide constructive criticism say his work is: too distant, no organic feel, no closeness, no grit in his images whatsoever.  I don't look at them at say to myself this must be Oz.  So yes, more megapixels for him, but it won't help.  As @adan says Oz understands his markets, and clearly his skills are sufficient for that.

I´ll probably step on some toes here with this last prospective.  The idea that professional photographers have some lock on Leica image making is to me laughable.  You could say that Magnum photographers are pros, but they operate along a completely different dimension than a commercial photog hacking out food and wedding work.  Same with journalists, they are operating along different dimensions.  Realistically, who buys Leica Ms?  People shooting commercial work on food?  Sports? Autoracing?  Come on, let's be real.  The M is a camera for iconoclasts and visionaries.  They are for people who march to their own drummer and important to not forget: who can afford to march to that drummer.

So like Man Ray on his tombstone, I remain unconcerned but not indifferent to the outcome of the coming M11.  I know that for me that the work in image-making is between my ears, not in what my hands hold.

 

 

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9 hours ago, KFo said:

You could say that Magnum photographers are pros, but they operate along a completely different dimension than a commercial photog hacking out food and wedding work.  Same with journalists, they are operating along different dimensions.  Realistically, who buys Leica Ms?  People shooting commercial work on food?  Sports? Autoracing?  Come on, let's be real.  The M is a camera for iconoclasts and visionaries.  They are for people who march to their own drummer and important to not forget: who can afford to march to that drummer.

At the risk of being an iconoclast marching to my own drummer, take a look at the color photo essay in the top issue of my web magazine on this link (02/2017 - You Go, Grrrl!/Catch Her If You Can ).

http://www.coloradoseen.com/2017/

All but one picture made with the Leica M10 (lenses from 21mm-135mm).

One characteristic of being a visionary is - not limiting one's vision of what a given camera can do. ;)

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7 minutes ago, adan said:

At the risk of being an iconoclast marching to my own drummer, take a look at the color photo essay in the top issue of my web magazine on this link (02/2017 - You Go, Grrrl!/Catch Her If You Can ).

http://www.coloradoseen.com/2017/

All but one picture made with the Leica M10 (lenses from 21mm-135mm).

One characteristic of being a visionary is - not limiting one's vision of what a given camera can do. ;)

 

No argument to be found here.  You can do what you want with an M.  It's just atypical some venues of work.  Conventional thinking operates in a pervasive way in these matters.  For example, the case in point: Oz.  Typical. Nothing to see there.

Nice magazine and images Adan!!  I want take some time to look through it more carefully later.

 

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17 hours ago, adan said:

One characteristic of being a visionary is - not limiting one's vision of what a given camera can do. ;)

I probably don't qualify as a visionary, but I find it is the lack of confidence in my ability rather than the camera that is the limiting factor.  As I push my envelope with the Ms they consistently demonstrate they are up to the task.

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  • 4 weeks later...

There is nothing “obsolete” about the M10, as I see it. The days of a digital camera becoming truly obsolete, when the next generation is introduced, are behind us.

I do not see any wisdom in selling something, before its value drops, because I believe that I realize the full value of an item by using it, for a number of years. I do not tend to be an early adopter of the next new thing, having done so with cameras only once, and that was because the Canon 7D Mark II offered better low-light performance, in several aspects, during a time when I was in need of that capability, while on duty, for official purposes. (Evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, mostly at night.) AF performance, in low light, was especially worth pursuing, at the time. That type of shooting is, obviously, not why I use Leica M equipment, and, I am now retired from public service, anyway.

I am relatively new to the Leica system, having started with an M10, in April 2018, which was about the time the M10 could be found, locally, in stock, without the need to be on a wait list. I was not tempted, in the least, to buy an M10-R, because the higher resolution seemed unnecessary, for the images I have been shooting with Leica equipment. I do not plan to buy an M11, and will not do so, unless it offers something truly useful, that I cannot yet anticipate. (I did buy a Monochrom Type 246, pre-owned, in order to shoot black-and-white images, especially in low light, without having to convert the images by post-processing.)

You-tubers thrive on clicks, likes, and adding subscribers/followers. Some of them derive income from affiliate links, when buyers click-through their links. I am not going to place much stock in a you-tubers telling me that I should sell my existing equipment, and buy something new.

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I've said this many times before - A camera is a 'tool', and shouldn't be deemed an investment, unless of course the investment pays dividends. If the M10 works for you, it doesn't necessarily mean that an M11 will work better nor will it make someone a better photographer. Some of my best photographs and prints were taken with an M8 and a 25 year-old lens with minimal post processing. Your investment should be in the Leica M lens system as they can be used on multiple systems.

I have an M10-R, but if I didn't, and it made sense to buy an M10 or M10-P, I would without hesitation. The majority of 'photographic artists' or 'image-makers' who shoot for a living don't waste their time on these forums. They care about having a tool that works for their style of shooting and if they are happy and their clients are happy, that's ultimately what matters.

If the M11 has a 61MP BSI sensor, a new battery and other 'niceties', it won't make me sell my M10-R, take a loss and plunk down $9k, so that I can simply have the newest bright-and-shiny M camera. I will save the $$ and buy the next M lens that I need for my arsenal.

-Brad

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8 hours ago, roverover said:

Not selling my M10R but I will buy the new EVF to use with it and will maybe also buy the new M model too, but to me,
M10R is a keeper. It may well become the Highest Resolution "Old School" style M model if the bottom plate does go away.

 

While I share the notion of retaining the 10R, I'm less optimistic that the new EVF will be backward compatible, at least in the sense of offering any advantage over the current one. I.E. it might work on both the 10R and M11, but I suspect that if it provides 6Mpx on the 11, it wont be anything other than the current 2.4MPx on the 10. 

Edited by Tailwagger
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9 hours ago, roverover said:

Not selling my M10R but I will buy the new EVF to use with it and will maybe also buy the new M model too, but to me,
M10R is a keeper. It may well become the Highest Resolution "Old School" style M model if the bottom plate does go away.

 

In my book, M10-D is the only "Old School" style digital M model: winder level, removable bottom, no rear LCD.

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I still remember the time, when the M10 was released. A few forum members sold their M9 early, to get the best used prices. Which of course is obvious, if you sell before the announcement, you probably will get a higher price. When the next camera is announced, more people will try to sell their old camera. However, except for a few initial deliveries, the M10 was not available in high numbers for months. As a consequence, some of the early sellers were without an M for many months. A lot of unhappiness resulted of this.

So yes, if one sells early, the used value of your previous camera will be a bit higher, but for that one might have to be willing to be without a camera for as long as it takes.

 

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