Colour photographer buys an M10 Monochrom (image thread not open)

[dkmoore]

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2 hours ago, convexferret said:

Strong colour filters on lenses not well colour-corrected, yes. So older lenses mostly. You should check your pre-asph summilux 35 for example but your AA summilux will likely be much less affected, if at all. Also only an issue wider open of course.

Happens with new lenses as well, 50 and 35 Lux. I’m talking wide open. Stop down a bit and it’s fine. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

Colour Filters create focus shift ? 

Lens dependent, as different colors of light focus on different planes  This was a known issue in film days, particularly with IR photography.  Older lenses even had a marker on the distance scale to adjust for the effect.  Modern APO lenses do a much better job eliminating the shift.  Orange and yellow filters are a non-issue.  I don't like red filters, regardless, preferring more subtle effects and fine tuning through PP.

Jeff

 

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[grahamc]

Oh dear I'm wanting this camera now .  Great images @Steven 

I've more or less only been shooting Tri-X lately and looks like a lovely pairing.  

[Steven]

My general impression so far is for those dedicated to BW photography could buy this camera and not need anything for the rest of their lives. I don't think I've ever said that about any other digital camera, and especially not about the colour variants of the M10. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

My general impression so far is for those dedicated to BW photography could buy this camera and not need anything for the rest of their lives. I don't think I've ever said that about any other digital camera, and especially not about the colour variants of the M10. 

I have moved to shooting the Q2 Mono exclusively.

One camera, one lens and only B&W. Simplicity perfected.

[grahamc]

This has been covered in other threads but not ever really settling on a definitive answer (if there even is one)...  

I'm interested to know from users, and in the 'real world' whether the reasons that the M10-M (and other M variants) help produce better B&W images is because of a) the sensor tech / the specific tuning for B&W by Leica , b) the fact that the choice-limitation inspires the user to 'think' in B&W and therefore produce 'better' B&W images or c) Both ?

I am sure the Leica Marketing claims a strong case for (a) but how about the experience of users?.  @Steven (and others) are you experiencing a noticeable difference in quality versus your previous (colour) Leica B&W conversions that you confidently feel to be truly independent of point (b) ?   Or are they too hard to separate...

Whatever it is, it's clearly working !  

Thanks in advance 

Graham 

Edited October 31, 2021 by grahamc

[250swb]

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2 hours ago, grahamc said:

I'm interested to know from users, and in the 'real world' whether the reasons that the M10-M (and other M variants) help produce better B&W images is because of a) the sensor tech / the specific tuning for B&W by Leica , b) the fact that the choice-limitation inspires the user to 'think' in B&W and therefore produce 'better' B&W images or c) Both ?

A ) sensor technology and tuning, an opinion by somebody, maybe even a team, that programmed the software. If their vision matches yours it's a 👍. But look at any B&W film forum and you will see far more creative variation in choice of approach and use of materials.

B ) Good choice of the word 'think', the Monochrom simply shows the world in B&W, it doesn't see or intellectualise anything. But photographers have thought about and responded to the world in B&W for over 180 years, so the Monochrom does a job that wasn't redundant in the first place. 

After having the first two Monochroms I gave up on the idea because the visualisation possible wasn't as versatile as converting from colour files and manipulating tones as you would traditionally with colour filters but using software instead, nor as tuneable as using film with the wide variety of materials available. I don't mind adding grain to Monochrom images, or ignoring Leica's idea for an S curve, but it feels futile, it's limited for what I want out of a photograph. Any other considerations such as high ISO performance, resolution and clean files that can be printed the size of a house are wasted on me.  

Edited October 31, 2021 by 250swb

[Steven]

About a) I feel that I see a difference. The M10M files are so crisp and detailed. They seem to me to have an extra level of 3D pop over M10P conversions. Micro contrast ? 
As soon as you pass ISO 1600, the difference is non debatable to me.

 

b) of course. Tomorrow, I’m taking my kids on a camel ride at sunset. Being in a honeymoon phase with my M10M, I’m trying to imagine it all in BW. But I’m tempted to take the M10R in case I find something nice that requires color. The problem is, if I have the option of colour, I’ll just be too distracted and not see anything in BW. I’m thinking to challenge myself and bring the M10M, although this kind of scene is more of a colour vision in my brain, and see what comes out of it.  

[grahamc]

11 minutes ago, 250swb said:

A ) sensor technology and tuning, an opinion by somebody, maybe even a team, that programmed the software. If their vision matches yours it's a 👍. But look at any B&W film forum and you will see far more creative variation in choice of approach and use of materials.

B ) Good choice of the word 'think', the Monochrom simply shows the world in B&W, it doesn't see or intellectualise anything. But photographers have thought about and responded to the world in B&W for over 180 years, so the Monochrom does a job that wasn't redundant in the first place. 

After having the first two Monochroms I gave up on the idea because the visualisation possible wasn't as versatile as converting from colour files and manipulating tones as you would traditionally with colour filters but using software instead, nor as tuneable as using film with the wide variety of materials available. I don't mind adding grain to Monochrom images, or ignoring Leica's idea for an S curve, but it feels futile, it's limited for what I want out of a photograph. Any other considerations such as high ISO performance, resolution and clean files that can be printed the size of a house are wasted on me.  

That's interesting thanks.    

(a) Good point, I guess it's an interpretation isn't it by a team etc so depends on the fit with the individuals user's tastes to a certain degree on how much difference that will make - I must admit I've been really impressed by a lot of images I've seen from M10-M's, both here and elsewhere.  However, those using this camera obviously have a love and passion for B&W photography so it would also make perfect sense that they take good B&W images 

Topic (b) I can definitely imagine there are benefits, if only in the knock-on effects limitation factor when out shooting. Being limited is a great motivator to push yourself, and in doing so you often see better results. And I assume you are looking at different things (or things differently) with the Mono camera in your hand. And that's even before even considering live view in B&W (which I haven't thought about until your post).

If I understand correctly it sounds like you have a pretty clear idea of what you want from B&W images which kinda makes point (a) redundant regardless of how good it is (perhaps), as you are retrofitting your vision to the image in post as I'm sure we all do.   So with regards (a) it's not a magic potion but if the Leica recipe suits your vision then it's at the very least a great head start .

I could be way off with those assessments.  It's definitely a fascinating topic and the amount of positive feedback on these models is hard to ignore 

[grahamc]

16 minutes ago, Steven said:

About a) I feel that I see a difference. The M10M files are so crisp and detailed. They seem to me to have an extra level of 3D pop over M10P conversions. Micro contrast ? 
As soon as you pass ISO 1600, the difference is non debatable to me.

 

b) of course. Tomorrow, I’m taking my kids on a camel ride at sunset. Being in a honeymoon phase with my M10M, I’m trying to imagine it all in BW. But I’m tempted to take the M10R in case I find something nice that requires color. The problem is, if I have the option of colour, I’ll just be too distracted and not see anything in BW. I’m thinking to challenge myself and bring the M10M, although this kind of scene is more of a colour vision in my brain, and see what comes out of it.  

Great, thanks .  Good point I had forgotten about that, the word 'detailed' has come up often and I'm still at the start of reading the many threads properly about the M's (hence these Q's) but that's a word that gets mentioned often.    

R.e. (b) I don't doubt at all that this is a major factor, and that that's a really good thing (I can only relate my experience of using the D's).  Well, it sounds like a really special day but selfishly I would suggest you to leave the colour at home so we can test this theory, perhaps you might get some uncompromisingly good images  

Or of course you take the colour and take only the mono on another occasion where you would've loaded some tri-X in the analogue world.  

Who knows !  but as I said initially, whatever voodoo is at play here it's working for yourself and many 

Edited October 31, 2021 by grahamc

[Luke_Miller]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

About a) I feel that I see a difference. The M10M files are so crisp and detailed. They seem to me to have an extra level of 3D pop over M10P conversions. Micro contrast ? 

Sean Reid on his subscription site did a review of the 35 mm Summicron ASP on the M240, M10-R, and M10 Monochrom.  In the side-by-side resolution tests the M10-M out resolved the other two at all apertures.

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

Sean Reid on his subscription site did a review of the 35 mm Summicron ASP on the M240, M10-R, and M10 Monochrom.  In the side-by-side resolution tests the M10-M out resolved the other two at all apertures.

Hardly surprising, when one starts with 40ish MP and strips away the Bayer Array, significantly increasing effective resolution.  If the lens remains constant, the rest is up to the sensor.

Jeff

[Steven]

2 hours ago, grahamc said:

Well, it sounds like a really special day but selfishly I would suggest you to leave the colour at home so we can test this theory, perhaps you might get some uncompromisingly good images  

Will bring the M10M. As I said, I envision the day (it's wenesday night, my wife just told me I had the schedule wrong) in color. But it's also an evening diner in the desert, where the only source of light will be candles and car headlights. So that's too many reason to bring the Mono for an ultimate test: low light, and a scenario I can't really imagine in BW in my head. 

what's more, I went to that same desert, with the same kids, last may, with my SL2-S. I'll be able to compare the photos, and see if it's the colour or the BW night that came out better. 

[Herr Barnack]

On 10/27/2021 at 3:56 PM, Steven said:

The disadvantage of shooting from the hip is obviously composition. I wish I hadn't cut her head here, but I still like the image. The husband, turned to me, was scrolling on instagram, while she was enjoying her glass of wine alone, day dreaming.... 

I also like a "mystery girl" 6x6 crop, to show the reflection of the wine glass on her coat and legs. My point is to illustrate the quality of the 40MP sensor. I wasn't using the sharpest lens in the world, but a quite heavy crop at 40K iso still works! 

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@Steven In my view, this image still works; this is one of many possible composition options.

I have always been mystified by people's thinking on "scalping" the subject.  Many people do not object to cutting off the top of the subject's head, yet if part of a foot or hand falls outside the frame, they consider the image to be a failure, or at the very least a flawed image. 

Many take that view of images made by unheralded image makers, yet overlook it when a photographer who is famous enough shows an image that has the same "flaw."  It doesn't add up. 

You have some truly excellent images that you have posted in this thread; they have inspired mt to do more with my M10 Monochrom.  I have had my copy for a while now and have barely begun to plumb the depths of its capabilities.

Keep up the good work and show us more of your Monochrom images!

Edited October 31, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Steven]

Airport + Steel Rim flare

 

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[Steven]

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[Guest Nowhereman]

@Steven - Have you ever tried the SL2-S Hi-Contrast B&W JPG preset? In another thread, someone linked a video that raved about how good the JPGs were. I watched a small portion of the video and they looked good, although the vlogger was rather insufferable.
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[Steven]

Very dark room, 1/125th, cropped, can't remember the ISO, but it's just so clean always

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[andybarton]

On 10/27/2021 at 5:52 PM, adan said:

Would that apply to the "Show us your 28/35-pre/50/90/135 APO-Telyt/Mandler-Magic/Older-Glass/Noctilux images" threads - in the M Lenses techical forum?

- or for that matter the three (3) "Monochrom M/246/M10M images" thread(s) pinned for all time at the top of this "technical" forum?

Etc. for the SL/SL2/SL-S/film M/Q/T/X/D-C-V-Lux/R/S technical Forums?

Those threads are for showing the rendering etc of particular lenses or families of lenses. If an individual wants to share their own work, the Photo section of the forum is the place.

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[Jeff S]

If you want more grainy/noisy rendering at higher ISOs (without adding in post), the original M Monochrom fits the bill. The M9 platform, though, is clunky by M10 standards (and the frame lines are optimized for 1m rather than 2m).  One nice aspect of the MM, however, is that it’s the only digital M, as far as I know, that displays a RAW histogram (after a short delay), which helps avoid blown highlights that can’t be recovered (through color channels in post) using a Monochrom.

Jeff