Leica SL2 Shutter/IBIS induced motion blur

[asaiah]

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Hello All,

I've been having some issues with my SL2 and I was wondering if anyone else was experiencing anything similar?

When the IBIS and mechanical shutter are both activated I get motion blur when the shutter is set between 1/80th-1/160th second. I've done a bit of testing and the issue disappears when the electronic shutter is used, the images are also sharper at the shutter speeds mentioned with mechanical shutter on and the IBIS turned off. The effect is present using my APO SL35, as well as my adapted M lenses.
 

Here is a brief synopsis of my interaction with Leica repairs regarding the problem.

In February this year I sent the camera in to Leica NJ for the issue, it was then shipped to Germany. More than two months later the camera was returned unrepaired with a note which said; "Dear Sir/Madam, The error described is a firmware bug. We are diligently working on a firmware that will fix the problem. As soon as we have a new firmware, we will release it on our homepage.   Kind Regards, Leica Customer Care"

At the time I was unimpressed with the response and requested that the camera be exchanged for one that functions properly and was told that the problem I was experiencing effected all SL2"s so a replacement would not be helpful. At the time (May) I was told the firmware update would be available in June or July, last week the firmware was released. Unfortunately my camera is behaving the same.

 

Here are a couple of 100% crops of some of my test images the first image in both pairs is taken with mechanical shutter and IBIS active, the second with E shutter and IBIS active. The lens is the APO 50/2 on the first image and the APO 35/2 on the second. 

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[michali]

7 hours ago, asaiah said:

Hello All,

I've been having some issues with my SL2 and I was wondering if anyone else was experiencing anything similar?

When the IBIS and mechanical shutter are both activated I get motion blur when the shutter is set between 1/80th-1/160th second. I've done a bit of testing and the issue disappears when the electronic shutter is used, the images are also sharper at the shutter speeds mentioned with mechanical shutter on and the IBIS turned off. The effect is present using my APO SL35, as well as my adapted M lenses.
 

Here is a brief synopsis of my interaction with Leica repairs regarding the problem.

In February this year I sent the camera in to Leica NJ for the issue, it was then shipped to Germany. More than two months later the camera was returned unrepaired with a note which said; "Dear Sir/Madam, The error described is a firmware bug. We are diligently working on a firmware that will fix the problem. As soon as we have a new firmware, we will release it on our homepage.   Kind Regards, Leica Customer Care"

At the time I was unimpressed with the response and requested that the camera be exchanged for one that functions properly and was told that the problem I was experiencing effected all SL2"s so a replacement would not be helpful. At the time (May) I was told the firmware update would be available in June or July, last week the firmware was released. Unfortunately my camera is behaving the same.

 

Here are a couple of 100% crops of some of my test images the first image in both pairs is taken with mechanical shutter and IBIS active, the second with E shutter and IBIS active. The lens is the APO 50/2 on the first image and the APO 35/2 on the second. 

 

 

It's a known issue with most mirrorless cameras that there's an element of shutter shock or slap with the mechanical shutter which causes blurred images. The issue is even more pronounced when using longer lenses. I've encountered this with Sony a7R, Lumix S1R &  Leica SL2 & SL2-S cameras.

I suspect that IBIS makes it even worse as it can't compensate for the shutter shock when the mechanical shutter is used. This was an issue I complained about when I first used the Lumix S1R, I was on a safari & many of my images had motion blur.

My standard setting 99% of the time on the SL2 & SL2-S is to use the electronic shutter,  I've had no further issues with blurred images.

Leica's comment of a "firmware bug" sounds like complete & utter nonsense.......

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[SrMi]

It does look like an unfortunate interaction of IBIS and shutter shock. IIRC, Fuji had a similar issue. It was resolved using the EFCS. I would love to see Leica add EFCS to SL2 cameras per firmware.

[Robert E]

I sold my beloved SL to get the SL2 as I'm in need of the IBIS due to my age.  The IBIS has helped a lot when using M & R lenses, and I usually use the mechanical shutter.

It would be helpful if you could show the same mechanical shots with the IBIS on and off.  Also, are you using IBIS when mounted on a tripod? Really need more detailed info on the shots and more variety to tell if its indeed the mechanical shutter or the IBIS reacting to the shutter? Just trying to help. 

[bpLeica]

I first experienced this when shooting video on tripod with the Panasonic S1H... our footage was strangely soft.... many a sleepless nights pondering what is happening to our nicely lit footage and it dawned on me that IBIS should be off when shooting on a tripod... I suspect that you are shooting on tripod as @Robert E asks... if that is the case, your problem is solved... turn off IBIS and OIS always on tripod.

[Shawn30]

Since the problem goes away when you change to electronic shutter I'd lean toward the problem being the equipment instead of user. I can tell you with the exception of one non Leica lens my SL2 does not have that issue. Although I select hybrid in the menu. 

[asaiah]

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On 10/12/2021 at 11:19 PM, michali said:

 

It's a known issue with most mirrorless cameras that there's an element of shutter shock or slap with the mechanical shutter which causes blurred images. The issue is even more pronounced when using longer lenses. I've encountered this with Sony a7R, Lumix S1R &  Leica SL2 & SL2-S cameras.

I suspect that IBIS makes it even worse as it can't compensate for the shutter shock when the mechanical shutter is used. This was an issue I complained about when I first used the Lumix S1R, I was on a safari & many of my images had motion blur.

My standard setting 99% of the time on the SL2 & SL2-S is to use the electronic shutter,  I've had no further issues with blurred images.

Leica's comment of a "firmware bug" sounds like complete & utter nonsense.......

Thanks For the information Mike. I'm surprised I haven't heard more about the issue, the results my camera produces between 1/80 to 1/125 sec are pretty bad. Maybe some SL2's are effected less?

[asaiah]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:56 AM, SrMi said:

It does look like an unfortunate interaction of IBIS and shutter shock. IIRC, Fuji had a similar issue. It was resolved using the EFCS. I would love to see Leica add EFCS to SL2 cameras per firmware.

Thanks SrMi, I think the IBIS is playing a roll also, I do get better results often with the IBIS off when using the mechanical shutter.

[asaiah]

4 hours ago, Robert E said:

I sold my beloved SL to get the SL2 as I'm in need of the IBIS due to my age.  The IBIS has helped a lot when using M & R lenses, and I usually use the mechanical shutter.

It would be helpful if you could show the same mechanical shots with the IBIS on and off.  Also, are you using IBIS when mounted on a tripod? Really need more detailed info on the shots and more variety to tell if its indeed the mechanical shutter or the IBIS reacting to the shutter? Just trying to help. 

Hello Robert I'll try to post some images with the IBIS off, thing are a little busy right now so might take a couple days.

Also, all the shots are handheld. Sadly, the days one (for me at least) can forgo reading the manual for a camera are over and it's pretty explicit about tripods and the IBIS. 

[asaiah]

54 minutes ago, bpLeica said:

I first experienced this when shooting video on tripod with the Panasonic S1H... our footage was strangely soft.... many a sleepless nights pondering what is happening to our nicely lit footage and it dawned on me that IBIS should be off when shooting on a tripod... I suspect that you are shooting on tripod as @Robert E asks... if that is the case, your problem is solved... turn off IBIS and OIS always on tripod.

Sadly no tripod was involved.

[asaiah]

52 minutes ago, Shawn30 said:

Since the problem goes away when you change to electronic shutter I'd lean toward the problem being the equipment instead of user. I can tell you with the exception of one non Leica lens my SL2 does not have that issue. Although I select hybrid in the menu. 

Thanks Shawn, gives me a little hope to hear not all SL2's suffer the issue.

[bpLeica]

34 minutes ago, asaiah said:

Sadly no tripod was involved.

Have you tried the new firmware? I have both 2 and S and will run some tests next week.

Edited October 14, 2021 by bpLeica

[Slender]

1 hour ago, bpLeica said:

I first experienced this when shooting video on tripod with the Panasonic S1H... our footage was strangely soft.... many a sleepless nights pondering what is happening to our nicely lit footage and it dawned on me that IBIS should be off when shooting on a tripod... I suspect that you are shooting on tripod as @Robert E asks... if that is the case, your problem is solved... turn off IBIS and OIS always on tripod.

Could it be the OLPF the S1H has? Only L mount camera to have one btw... IBIS in video on tripod should not affect sharpness, but could "fight back" in jitters when you pan-tilt on a fluid head. There are options to fine tune this I believe? Leica proposes something for the ibis to ignore pan/tilt if I recon, but I havent really bothered investigating.

[asaiah]

5 hours ago, bpLeica said:

Have you tried the new firmware? I have both 2 and S and will run some tests next week.

Yes, it is the newest firmware.

[michali]

9 hours ago, asaiah said:

Thanks For the information Mike. I'm surprised I haven't heard more about the issue, the results my camera produces between 1/80 to 1/125 sec are pretty bad. Maybe some SL2's are effected less?

I don't think it's a case of some SL2's being affected less, it's most probably more lens dependent, focal length, lens' OIS etc. Since switching to the electronic shutter as my standard setting, I've never encountered the issue again.

[panoreserve]

It's a well known issue - sadly. Like "michali" I switched to the electronic shutter as my standard setting. LEICA (Wetzlar) is aware of this phenomenon - which only occurs when Ibis AND mechanical shutter are on...some kind of unfortunate interaction/interference.🙁

Edited October 15, 2021 by panoreserve

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, panoreserve said:

It's a well known issue - sadly. Like "michali" I switched to the electronic shutter as my standard setting. LEICA (Wetzlar) is aware of this phenomenon - which only occurs when Ibis AND mechanical shutter are on...some kind of unfortunate interaction/interference.🙁

I assume the issue also appear only in certain shutter speed range (typical for shutter shock).

[asaiah]

12 hours ago, michali said:

I don't think it's a case of some SL2's being affected less, it's most probably more lens dependent, focal length, lens' OIS etc. Since switching to the electronic shutter as my standard setting, I've never encountered the issue again.

That conclusion does make the most sense. I have been using the E-shutter whenever possible also, it's just not a good solution with most artificial lighting these days..

[asaiah]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I assume the issue also appear only in certain shutter speed range (typical for shutter shock).

Yes, on the focal lengths I use most (24, 35, 50) the worst effect seems to be between 1/80 - 1/125 sec, though I've tested for it most at 1/100 of a second as that's a shutter speed I'm confident I can produce excellent results without using IBIS with my most commonly used lenses.

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[Shawn30]

Sigma 24-70, taken at 24mm f 2.8 1/100, hand held IBIS on, manual shutter, cropped beyond 100%. Focus on dogs near eye. 
I’m not saying the problem doesn’t exist, but I seldom see motion blur and when I do, I assume I caused it. Makes me think the problem could be found on some SL2’s more than others.

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