Over-Processed or???

[ryan1938]

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Hey guys... First, some background. I shoot mostly old cars and mostly in low light/golden-hour situations using:

- Leica SL2-S

- 21mm SEM

- 35mm 'Lux

- 90mm Summarit

The lenses have been a constant for me. I decided a few years back to pick my favorite lenses and stick with them - no matter what. When my M9 sensor delaminated, I got fed up with the cost of Leica and moved over to a Sony A7 series camera. I shot those cameras for a few years and got really comfortable with my work flow. Recently, however, I got a hankering for the Sl2-S and made the switch.

These photos were taken on my first outing:

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Here was my workflow:

1. Shoot in RAW

2. Use the SL2 preset found here as a starting point in LR.

Out of camera, the RAW files are pretty flat (I typically under expose by 2/3rds). BUT, when I use the Sl2 preset the images look almost HDR to me - far too over-processed. So, I stopped using the preset and just started from scratch on the RAW - careful not to get crazy with the shadows and highlights.

The jpgs above are probably going to look more muddy on your screen that the raws do in my LR... But over here, they still look over-processed to me - even with the conservative use of the shadows slider. I think either I have stared at these too long or I'm just not used to having this much dynamic range with lenses that are actually optimized for the camera I'm using.

 

I need some guidance... Do these look over-processed to you guys?

Edited October 8, 2021 by ryan1938

[pedaes]

Looks like would benefit from exposure increase tweek to me, followed by some work on the shadows.

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[ryan1938]

1 minute ago, pedaes said:

Looks like would benefit from exposure increase tweek to me, followed by some work on the shadows.

I just messed with those slides... And you are absolutely right. I do think I was just questioning myself too much... Here's some small tweaks of both and it's already starting to feel better:

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[ryan1938]

OK... I think I have it figured out. With the Sonys, I always under-exposed by at least 2/3rds a stop to save the highlights. With the SL2-S, I'm thinking I don't need to do that anymore... or, at the very least, be more aware that there is plenty of overhead there and I need to be a bit more aggressive with the exposure in post.

I'm a complete amateur (obviously) and my biggest fear is being far too aggressive with any one slider and ending up with some over-processed mess without realizing it.

[wda]

I wonder why you habitually under-expose your shots. Do you not take notice of your histogram ?

[ryan1938]

5 minutes ago, wda said:

I wonder why you habitually under-expose your shots. Do you not take notice of your histogram ?

I do it with exposure compensation on the camera. I did it with the Sony bodies because there is little to no data in the highlights and it was my way of saving that data to play with in post. But, I'm finding that with the SL2-S, I don't need to do that.

Keep in mind... and I'm sure this is obvious... But I don't really know what I am doing. I learn every time I shoot... And my process/thinking is probably 100% wrong.

[pedaes]

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1 hour ago, ryan1938 said:

I just messed with those slides.

Try the 'Auto' button - it is developed from hundreds of adjusted images by Jeff Schewe. You can further refine the sliders, add 'Clarity' and 'Dehaze' will give you more contrast in the foliage. You can warm it up or down with the colour temp. slider. 

[ryan1938]

12 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Try the 'Auto' button - it is developed from hundreds of adjusted images by Jeff Schewe. You can further refine the sliders, add 'Clarity' and 'Dehaze' will give you more contrast in the foliage. You can warm it up or down with the colour temp. slider. 

In the end, I got rid of the preset all together, used the auto button, and then brought out the shadows just a tad bit more. I think what I have now is far more accurate to what I was seeing on location. I just seem to get better results when I don't edit anything too much.

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Using photoshop to convert/compress to jpg... makes it a little more muddy, but I guess I could fix that too...

[wda]

Please, learn how to use your histogram and you will have a much better understanding of exposure control. Get it right in camera, and there is much less need for remedial post-processing. Take one step at a time.

What I am suggesting is not Leica-specific advice. After buying an expensive  camera, it is worth investing time mastering the fundamentals. There are many excellent videos explaining the techniques I am referencing.  Try Google.

Your subjects are excellent. Lighting is very challenging. Results could easily be improved by going back to first principles. Go for It!

Edited October 8, 2021 by wda

[LocalHero1953]

Some comments (intended constructively, since you appear to be looking for comments, but my apologies if not!). I will tell you what I would do, but everyone has their own approach.

• The car is in shade under a cloudless sky, which is a difficult scenario. The car looks under-lit and, as processed, under-exposed. Even if correctly exposed it needs a bit of work to increase contrast and highlights (otherwise known as the Leica 'ping', 'pop' etc 😉).
• Some Leica cameras (M, CL) must be under-exposed by 0-1 stop if there is sky in the picture, because the centre weighted exposure pattern does not handle it well. The SL2-S is better and usually (and correctly) under-exposes itself in order to protect sky highlights (which are always vulnerable to blowing on digital sensors). This means that you have to lift the main scene in post processing.
• As others have suggested, I always use the histogram when taking the shot, watching the right hand end. Digital files, especially Leica's, allow far easier shadow recovery than recovery of blown highlights. I never give the camera a totally free hand in auto exposure (By default I shoot in A mode, with Auto ISO, Auto WB and adjust exposure with Exposure Compensation).  
• I have a very simple import preset for Leica images in Lightroom: colour profile = Adobe Standard; Highlights +20; Shadows +20; Clarity +15; Vibrance +15; Tone Curve Medium contrast. This gives me a starting point. My next step is setting Black and White points using the 'auto' function (and then changing them if I don't like them). If the ISO was 800 or above I would adjust Noise.
• If I have had to under-expose a lot in order to protect sky highlights, then in Lightroom I may have to increase Exposure a lot to get the main area of interest properly exposed (skin tones, the car in this case). This usually means reducing Highlights again - but at least by under-exposing in camera to start with you have sky detail to recover.
• I hardly ever use presets (unless I have created them myself). I sometimes use Adobe B&W Punch just for the hell of it to get an impressive monochrome image. I may have used Adobe Color Vivid, but very rarely. Frankly if it is an important image, I'm not going to trust anyone else's black box preset. I know what effect I'm trying to achieve and will try to work out how to get to it myself.

Edited October 8, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[ryan1938]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Some comments (intended constructively, since you appear to be looking for comments, but my apologies if not!). I will tell you what I would do, but everyone has their own approach.

• The car is in shade under a cloudless sky, which is a difficult scenario. The car looks under-lit and, as processed, under-exposed. Even if correctly exposed it needs a bit of work to increase contrast and highlights (otherwise known as the Leica 'ping', 'pop' etc 😉).
• Some Leica cameras (M, CL) must be under-exposed by 0-1 stop if there is sky in the picture, because the centre weighted exposure pattern does not handle it well. The SL2-S is better and usually (and correctly) under-exposes itself in order to protect sky highlights (which are always vulnerable to blowing on digital sensors). This means that you have to lift the main scene in post processing.
• As others have suggested, I always use the histogram when taking the shot, watching the right hand end. Digital files, especially Leica's, allow far easier shadow recovery than recovery of blown highlights. I never give the camera a totally free hand in auto exposure.  
• I have a very simple import preset for Leica images in Lightroom: colour profile = Adobe Standard; Highlights +20; Shadows +20; Clarity +15; Vibrance +15; Tone Curve Medium contrast. This gives me a starting point. My next step is setting Black and White points using the 'auto' function (and then changing them if I don't like them). If the ISO was 800 or above I would adjust Noise.
• If I have had to under-expose a lot in order to protect sky highlights, then in Lightroom I may have to increase Exposure a lot to get the main area of interest properly exposed (skin tones, the car in this case). This usually means reducing Highlights again - but at least by under-exposing in camera to start with you have sky detail to recover.
• I hardly ever use presets (unless I have created them myself). I sometimes use Adobe B&W Punch just for the hell of it to get an impressive monochrome image. I may have used Adobe Color Vivid, but very rarely. Frankly if it is an important image, I'm not going to trust anyone else's black box preset. I know what effect I'm trying to achieve and will try to work out how to get to it myself.

 

Hell no! I appreciate all the help I can get!

Thanks for taking the time man. Sincerely. 

I haven't gotten out and shot really since Covid and feel as though I'm re-learning a lot...

[darylgo]

Hi Ryan, 

Those are some great shots .  What I found with landscape photos is that highlight detail requires shadows to suffer and images can have an overall dark appearance.  To solve this I move the white slider to the right.  This will blow out highlights in the sky that can then be recovered with the grad tool and eraser brush.  The result is a brighter image.  

[zeitz]

6 hours ago, ryan1938 said:

the RAW files are pretty flat

Ryan, a raw file is not an image and the term flat does not apply to a raw file.  A raw file is the table of values read from the sensor array, along with metadata about the camera, lens, lighting conditions, time of day, etc.  The adjective "flat" refers to the result of some raw processor that is taking the table of values and making an image from it, being in the camera or on a computer.  Paul gives an excellent description of the steps he uses with the Adobe Standard option in the Adobe Camera Raw processor.  (Adobe Camera Raw is the Develop Module of Lightroom.)  I think it helps to appreciate that if an image is flat, it has nothing to do with the contents of the raw file but reflects on the raw converter defaults that are being used.

Over-processed is different for images intended to viewed on a screen or for images that are being printed because a monitor and paper are very different media.

I like your work very much.  It reminds me of the work Moose Peterson does with aircraft.

[adan]

The only thing that looks over-processed in these shots is oversharpening. Too many halos around the engine parts and other chrome bits.

When I reduce an image for web use, once it is scaled down, the only sharpening I do is a simply Photoshop "Sharpen" - FADED 50%

My only other comment on these shots is that you were about 15-20 minutes late in shooting. You have a nice sunset sky - but the main subject is not in the sun anymore.

Which means the car is too blue (mostly lit by skylight - that big blue dome overhead), and too dull and dark within the overall picture. Both of which will make post-processing harder.

Basic psychology of vision is that the eye is attracted to warm colors (yellow through red) and the brightest, contrastiest thing in the picture.

Here's a revision (of just your thumbnail jpg.). Essentially - everything below the horizon brightened, with added contrast and "sunset yellow-red" color tweak. And the tiniest skootch of corner vignetting to direct the eye in towards the "Deuce."

Now, you and/or others may consider my version "too overprocessed." And that's taste, so understandable and not debatable. I do think my revision changes the picture from "Landscape with parked car" to "Deuce Hotrod at Sunset."

 

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Edited October 9, 2021 by adan

[frame-it]

shoot raw

use the auto button

reduce the highlights a little bit, bring up the shadows a fair bit

if you need clarity or texture adjustments, do it carefully with a Brush, NOT all over the image.

try to avoid red or blue shadows

i never increase vibrance, its sometimes splotchy

try out highlight weighted metering on the SL2-S

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by frame-it

[250swb]

 

There are three buttons grouped together in Photoshop that incrementally improve the photo, they are 'Auto Color', 'Auto Contrast', and 'Tone', and they can be used to check the image. If you use Lightroom there may be similar buttons. But doing nothing other than pressing each one the image becomes less muddy, the sky looks more like a sunset and not smog, the car becomes redder not browner, the tarmac becomes grey and textured, and the greens become vibrant (example below). So use the checking tools that Adobe give you, in ACR try 'Auto', and change the usually awful Leica colour profiles from 'SL' (or whatever) to 'Adobe Standard', etc. At some point you should see your image come alive at which point you can refine it. It's important to remember presets or profiles etc. are somebody else's opinion written by a software boffin, not a perfect solution for your image at the time you pressed the shutter.

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Edited October 9, 2021 by 250swb

[250swb]

If you then want to further accentuate the sunset on the car use editing software such as Color Efex, in this example I used the 'Skylight' filter and held back the clouds so only the foreground was cooked.

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Edited October 9, 2021 by 250swb

[pgk]

There is no such thing as 'correct' exposure, unless that is, you have a pre-conceived result in mind and know what highlight or shadow loss that result will accept. The great thing about digital is that you can experiment until you understand the interplay between exposure and post processing, and can come up with methods which achieve your personal requirements. Using auto settings is fine but at best will need fine tuning and at worst will give very bland results indeed. I use Sonys, an SL and M9s and all require slightly different exposure and post processing in order to get the results that I want from them. A lot of photography is about pre-conception and experience so to me the key is practice and experience.

[stuny]

Lovely rod shots.  The biggest change is compositional -  I'd make place the rod at least somewhat off center, most likely with more space in front of the car - as with portraits of people and animals.  give it a try with these, cropping some from the left.

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[evikne]

19 hours ago, ryan1938 said:

Hey guys... First, some background. I shoot mostly old cars and mostly in low light/golden-hour situations using:

- Leica SL2-S

- 21mm SEM

- 35mm 'Lux

- 90mm Summarit

The lenses have been a constant for me. I decided a few years back to pick my favorite lenses and stick with them - no matter what. When my M9 sensor delaminated, I got fed up with the cost of Leica and moved over to a Sony A7 series camera. I shot those cameras for a few years and got really comfortable with my work flow. Recently, however, I got a hankering for the Sl2-S and made the switch.

These photos were taken on my first outing:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Here was my workflow:

1. Shoot in RAW

2. Use the SL2 preset found here as a starting point in LR.

Out of camera, the RAW files are pretty flat (I typically under expose by 2/3rds). BUT, when I use the Sl2 preset the images look almost HDR to me - far too over-processed. So, I stopped using the preset and just started from scratch on the RAW - careful not to get crazy with the shadows and highlights.

The jpgs above are probably going to look more muddy on your screen that the raws do in my LR... But over here, they still look over-processed to me - even with the conservative use of the shadows slider. I think either I have stared at these too long or I'm just not used to having this much dynamic range with lenses that are actually optimized for the camera I'm using.

 

I need some guidance... Do these look over-processed to you guys?

I still think these first pictures look best and most natural. Especially picture #3 here looks great I think!