Jump to content

Shooting in manual mode with a M10 capturing images as DNG.


Recommended Posts

51 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I agree that there is some overthinking going on here.

Hello Jaap,

Are you writing that, effectively, if a person meters as they would with the meter configuration of an M6: And if a person determines exposure as a person would if they were using Kodachrome 64, meaning: Expose for the highlights while not worrying too much about the shadows that will more or less figure themselves out?

Keeping in mind. if you remember, that Kodachrome 64 benefitted, more so than some other films, from more accurate metering.

Then they should have a reasonably good proportion of properly exposed images?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited by Michael Geschlecht
Link to post
Share on other sites

Questions for @jaapv

First thing I think I understand about this video, is that if I take a photo of a pure white wall, I will end up with an image of an 18% gray, and that if I stand in front of a pure black wall, I will also end up with an image of 18% gray.  As the photographer, I need to understand that, and adjust my settings accordingly.  Bottom line, I "understand" this, but I'm not really sure how to apply it to real photographs I'm taking - beyond knowing that if the scene is overly bright or overly dark, I need to adjust the meter reading accordingly.  Nothing I have yet read suggests specifically how to do this.

Second thing, is the despite Marcus telling us he is going to explain how the meter works, he leaves out a very important part.  If I'm right, the light hits the shutter curtain, with those gray areas marked on it, and the light is reflected back to sensors that must be somewhere in the camera - but I have no idea where they are.  How many sensors are picking up this reflected light from the back of the camera (the shutter curtain), and where are they?  Marcus never mentions them.  Maybe I am wrong about this?

I understand what the video is teaching us, about that one specific example scene.  When I aim my M10 somewhere (at random), and I get the exposure indicators, or better yet with the visoflex, I also get a histogram, how do I know whether to use the suggested readings, or adapt them based on how light or dark the middle part of my scene is?  I assume I just learn this by doing it, and eventually figure out what to do, and how.  

It's not like with a Nikon, where the camera can automatically guess at a correct exposure along with everything else - the Leica is giving us all the information to enable US to make the correct settings.  That's what I need to learn how to do.

(I haven't been having problems with this - thanks to what you have already posted here, I am getting exposures that seem perfect, by viewing the histogram in the Visoflex mostly - but I'm sure there is a lot that I still need to learn.  Maybe I already know enough right now, but I have this nagging feeling that I don't really know how to get the best compromise for exposure.  ....and besides, if I'm not using the Visoflex and/or Live View, then what do I do?)

The M10 has three metering selections, but if I read things correctly, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, all I can measure is "center weighted".  Put differently, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, it doesn't matter what I select - the camera will only do center-weighted.  Is this really true?  

I think I'm going in the wrong direction, as nowadays I feel more comfortable with the M10 if I use the Visoflex.  It also gets me GPS information, which I prefer.  It's sad that the Visoflex uses up my battery so quickly, but it's beginning to feel like an essential accessory, which is also sort of effectively making my M10 into a "DSLR", or more so, a Mirrorless with all the tools that come with Mirrorless.  I prefer the simplicity of the basic camera, and would prefer to only use the Visoflex for complicated situations, not as my normal camera attachment.

Edited by MikeMyers
corrected typos
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Questions for @jaapv

First thing I think I understand about this video, is that if I take a photo of a pure white wall, I will end up with an image of an 18% gray, and that if I stand in front of a pure black wall, I will also end up with an image of 18% gray.  As the photographer, I need to understand that, and adjust my settings accordingly.  Bottom line, I "understand" this, but I'm not really sure how to apply it to real photographs I'm taking - beyond knowing that if the scene is overly bright or overly dark, I need to adjust the meter reading accordingly.  Nothing I have yet read suggests specifically how to do this.

Second thing, is the despite Marcus telling us he is going to explain how the meter works, he leaves out a very important part.  If I'm right, the light hits the shutter curtain, with those gray areas marked on it, and the light is reflected back to sensors that must be somewhere in the camera - but I have no idea where they are.  How many sensors are picking up this reflected light from the back of the camera (the shutter curtain), and where are they?  Marcus never mentions them.  Maybe I am wrong about this?

I understand what the video is teaching us, about that one specific example scene.  When I aim my M10 somewhere (at random), and I get the exposure indicators, or better yet with the visoflex, I also get a histogram, how do I know whether to use the suggested readings, or adapt them based on how light or dark the middle part of my scene is?  I assume I just learn this by doing it, and eventually figure out what to do, and how.  

It's not like with a Nikon, where the camera can automatically guess at a correct exposure along with everything else - the Leica is giving us all the information to enable US to make the correct settings.  That's what I need to learn how to do.

(I haven't been having problems with this - thanks to what you have already posted here, I am getting exposures that seem perfect, by viewing the histogram in the Visoflex mostly - but I'm sure there is a lot that I still need to learn.  Maybe I already know enough right now, but I have this nagging feeling that I don't really know how to get the best compromise for exposure.  ....and besides, if I'm not using the Visoflex and/or Live View, then what do I do?)

The M10 has three metering selections, but if I read things correctly, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, all I can measure is "center weighted".  Put differently, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, it doesn't matter what I select - the camera will only do center-weighted.  Is this really true?  

I think I'm going in the wrong direction, as nowadays I feel more comfortable with the M10 if I use the Visoflex.  It also gets me GPS information, which I prefer.  It's sad that the Visoflex uses up my battery so quickly, but it's beginning to feel like an essential accessory, which is also sort of effectively making my M10 into a "DSLR", or more so, a Mirrorless with all the tools that come with Mirrorless.  I prefer the simplicity of the basic camera, and would prefer to only use the Visoflex for complicated situations, not as my normal camera attachment.

You might read Adams’ classic trilogy….

https://www.amazon.com/New-Ansel-Adams-Photography-Volumes/dp/B000NKTMYW
 

… or attend some basic photo classes or workshops.

Jeff

Link to post
Share on other sites

Adams in the Camera, the Print, and the Negative does a good job explaining what is going on with that white wall and the 18% grey card.  BUT, I don’t think that the zone system it is super important for day to day exposures in a digital world.  My personal style is to often have black black in photos (Zone 1 in  Adam’s world) no matter the subject.  I just like it that way.

To prepare an exposure in that way, I typically am shooting in manual mode because working with wide angle (21-28-35) I’ll catch too much of one thing or another with the meter and burn up the entire sky or black out the entire earth.  I also don’t like spending time messing around with Lr, PS, C1, or whatever, so I try to capture my intention in the camera.

For me that normally means on a sunny Mediterranean day, my version of the “sunny 16 rule” (iso200, 1/180, f/11) works fine.  You can see, I’m about +1 stop from the basic rule.  With that setting, I’ll get the brightest, brightest parts of sky, mostly near the sun burned (don’t care) and plenty of shadow details to play around with if I want.  This lets me frame and shoot, frame and shoot with out messing around with metering.  It also lets me run the same settings almost all day long.  If I step into a narrow dark gothic alleyway, I can bump the ISO a couple of stops to compensate.  If I walk inside a building, I’ll either meter quickly and compensate or flick over to A-A mode and let the camera do the work.

For me, my keepers are generally the B&W JPG from the camera, the DNGs are there but just for curiosities sake usually.  Which leads me to another tip: you might consider switching to monochrome mode even if you don’t want to shoot B&W.  The reason is that the LCD (EVF) will display in B&W.  This abstracts the scene a bit but also lets you view more in terms of tonality without the complexity of color if you choose to use the technology.

If you switch to a good manual setting you’ll probably be surprised at how well it will work for most of your day. You can use the rangefinder exclusively and concentrate more on your intention.  In A-A mode the camera is constantly adjusting (it’s job for sure) but once you overlay your personal style and expectation, the camera doesn’t seem quite so smart anymore. ;) 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, KFo said:

For me that normally means on a sunny Mediterranean day, my version of the “sunny 16 rule” (iso200, 1/180, f/11) works fine.  You can see, I’m about +1 stop from the basic rule.

That's almost exactly how I do it too. I usually go 1 stop above the Sunny 16 rule. With M10, that's no problem. 

If I were to photograph a white wall (or anything else), I just take a look at the sky to determine how much incident light there is, and set the exposure according to that. To me, that's both faster, easier and safer than fiddling with exposure compensation. And the results are more consistent.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

First thing I think I understand about this video, is that if I take a photo of a pure white wall, I will end up with an image of an 18% gray, and that if I stand in front of a pure black wall, I will also end up with an image of 18% gray.  As the photographer, I need to understand that, and adjust my settings accordingly.  Bottom line, I "understand" this, but I'm not really sure how to apply it to real photographs I'm taking - beyond knowing that if the scene is overly bright or overly dark, I need to adjust the meter reading accordingly.  Nothing I have yet read suggests specifically how to do this.

You don't adjust the meter reading. You adjust exposure. By twiddling the shutter speed and aperture, or you use the EV compensation.

6 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Second thing, is the despite Marcus telling us he is going to explain how the meter works, he leaves out a very important part.  If I'm right, the light hits the shutter curtain, with those gray areas marked on it, and the light is reflected back to sensors that must be somewhere in the camera - but I have no idea where they are.  How many sensors are picking up this reflected light from the back of the camera (the shutter curtain), and where are they?  Marcus never mentions them.  Maybe I am wrong about this?

 

On the bottom of the camera mouth.. One sensor. 

6 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I understand what the video is teaching us, about that one specific example scene.  When I aim my M10 somewhere (at random), and I get the exposure indicators, or better yet with the visoflex, I also get a histogram, how do I know whether to use the suggested readings, or adapt them based on how light or dark the middle part of my scene is?  I assume I just learn this by doing it, and eventually figure out what to do, and how.  

 

https://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-read-and-use-histograms/

 

 

6 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I think I'm going in the wrong direction, as nowadays I feel more comfortable with the M10 if I use the Visoflex.  It also gets me GPS information, which I prefer.  It's sad that the Visoflex uses up my battery so quickly, but it's beginning to feel like an essential accessory, which is also sort of effectively making my M10 into a "DSLR", or more so, a Mirrorless with all the tools that come with Mirrorless.  I prefer the simplicity of the basic camera, and would prefer to only use the Visoflex for complicated situations, not as my normal camera attachment.

I think, as I said,  that you are starting to overthink this. The M10 has plenty of dynamic range. There is no need to expose perfectly in 95% of situations, like there was for slide film. Your postprocessing program has an exposure slider.

Having said that, it is really not a matter of having the camera do the thinking for you. It gives you an indication to read the light on the scene and it is up to you to adjust the exposure settings to get the photographic results you are aiming for. If you are unsure, move the camera around and see how the metering changes on various parts. Pick the bit you want to be 18% grey, like a bit of grass, or a brick wall, or some skin, whatever you deem suitable and forget about the exposure. Remember: there is not one perfect exposure, it is a creative tool. What is right for one photograph (and photographer) is wrong for the next. Start visualizing the way you want the photograph that you are taking to look, and aim for that result. 

Forget about ETTR, with the noise performance of present-day cameras, the concept is obsolete. Remove that EVF and put it in your camera bag, only use it when you really need it (and for fixing exposure you can just as well use the LCD).

You have the camera that gets the most out of the way between you and the subject of all, giving you the most direct photographic experience possible. You are creating a technological  barrier between yourself and and your subject.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, jaapv said:

You don't adjust the meter reading. You adjust exposure. By twiddling the shutter speed and aperture, or you use the EV compensation.

10 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Mostly because of what you wrote, when I really care about exposure, I am shooting in (M)anual mode.  Based on what the meter reads, I may or may not adjust the exposure - if I'm standing on a freshly paved asphalt parking lot, or on a sandy white beach, with identical lighting, it's very likely that the proper exposure will not change, but the meter readings will.  .....and even though the camera is in (M)anual mode, the red arrows and the circle guide me somewhat.  With the Visoflex I enjoy using the histogram.  I found your drawing very useful, but I'm also looking for small bright lights that I've read will confuse things.

 

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

I think, as I said,  that you are starting to overthink this.

I'm sure you're right, I am, but before I simplify things in my mind, I think I need to understand all these things.  Eventually, metering will get simpler - I hope!

 

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Having said that, it is really not a matter of having the camera do the thinking for you. It gives you an indication to read the light on the scene and it is up to you to adjust the exposure settings to get the photographic results you are aiming for.

That's what I'm trying to learn to do now.  First step was to lock the camera into (M)anual mode, and use the indicators and/or the histogram as a guide.

 

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Pick the bit you want to be 18% grey, like a bit of grass, or a brick wall, or some skin, whatever you deem suitable and forget about the exposure. Remember: there is not one perfect exposure, it is a creative tool.

Well, not for me.  I capture all my images as DNG, and process in DxO PhotoLab4.  I post images continually in the PhotoLab4 forum, and get feedback and corrections from others in the forum.  They are extremely picky about this, and they expect me to be as careful as they are.  Until I learned to use the Leica meter properly, with the Visoflex as a guide, they were constantly telling me that I got the exposure "wrong".  Only when I started to use the Visoflex, and pay attention to clipped areas in my image, and the histogram, did they finally tell me I was getting the exposures right.  ...which is why for "landscape" photos, my Visoflex is a standard part of how I use my M10.  I'm sure others here will disagree, that I might as well be using a DSLR, and in fact, everyone in this forum thinks I'm doing myself a dis-service by using the Leica which lacks that fine control.  As for me, I've enjoyed shooting with a Leica since I was a kid, and it fits me like a glove, and while I have lots of Nikon gear, it doesn't get used so much anymore.  Now there's the new mirrorless Z9 coming out, but I'm far more interested in the Leica M11.

 

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Start visualizing the way you want the photograph that you are taking to look, and aim for that result. 

Doing that now, while realizing how much I can adjust in post processing with PL4 when/if needed.

 

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

Remove that EVF and put it in your camera bag, only use it when you really need it (and for fixing exposure you can just as well use the LCD).

I dunno - I'm getting spoiled by the GPS, and the more precise focusing, and in daylight the LCD isn't very useful for me and my vision.  I prefer looking "into" something, and there are lots of times where I don't worry about this if I'm trying to be precise, the Visoflex is quite handy.  I never used to carry it with me, and when I get home, I'll probably put it away, but I can't deny that I feel it is quite helpful for me, both for focus, and exposure, and most certainly with my 135mm f/4 Tele-Elmar, where it nails the focus more easily than I can do with the rangefinder....

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Metering is not that hard to do. Which model of Nikon did you use & what type of metering did it have?

Started with Nikon SP, along with S3, then the F, F2, F2 photomic, D2h, D2x, D3, and D750 which is now my "main" DSLR, except I enjoy my new Df more.  My newer Nikons have spot or center weighted metering, or "averaging" for the full image.  Pick one of the three.  I used to use averaging the most, but then started using center weighted.

As to metering, if I don't do it perfectly, the people in the DxO PhotoLab forum complain.  I feel the newer DSLR cameras do it better, with more choices, than my M10, but with care, I think I can now use the M10 (with Visoflex) just as well.  The benefits, charm, simplicity, and "feel" of a Leica, combined with smaller and lighter, continue to keep the Leica as my number one choice.

(I think the new Nikon Z9 will outperform all the above, but with a huge increase in size, weight, cost, and value.  By comparison, the Leica cameras are the least expensive of the lot - my M10 is now on sale, used, at B&H for only a few hundred $$ less than I paid for mine.  By contrast, my big Nikon cameras cost me $4k to $5k, and are essentially worthless now....)

Edited by MikeMyers
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, evikne said:

If I were to photograph a white wall (or anything else), I just take a look at the sky to determine how much incident light there is, and set the exposure according to that. To me, that's both faster, easier and safer than fiddling with exposure compensation. And the results are more consistent.

In my hypothetical situation, the sky would be identical.  For the Leica, I suspect the change in metering would be huge, because of the brightness of the asphalt vs white sand.  Spot metering would be preferable, but without the Visoflex, the M10 only does "center weighted".  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

In my hypothetical situation, the sky would be identical.  For the Leica, I suspect the change in metering would be huge, because of the brightness of the asphalt vs white sand.  Spot metering would be preferable, but without the Visoflex, the M10 only does "center weighted".  

I think you misunderstood (I probably didn't explain clearly enough). I don't meter anything. I use the Sunny 16 rule. I take a look at the sky, and then set everything manually, without taking into account the camera's metering.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

In my hypothetical situation, the sky would be identical.  For the Leica, I suspect the change in metering would be huge, because of the brightness of the asphalt vs white sand.  Spot metering would be preferable, but without the Visoflex, the M10 only does "center weighted".  

So what would you spot meter in that situation to get a correct exposure?  That is the underlying question.  You could meter the white wall then the asphalt and average the readings… Or you can meter the wall and open 4 stops to get it to white (back to the zone system) in the exposure.  

Or much more simple and works anyplace on a sunny day on earth: sunny 16 rule.  f/16, shutter speed is 1/film ISO.  So ISO 200, f/16, 1/200.  From this you can dial +/- EVs to get DOF control or motion control as needed. 

Just go shoot sunny 16, or some other manual setting method.  You’ll be surprised at how well it works. :)

 

Edited by KFo
Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, KFo said:

Or much more simple and works anyplace on a sunny day on earth: sunny 16 rule.  f/16, shutter speed is 1/film ISO.  So ISO 200, f/16, 1/200.

So, with that huge area of "black" or "white" at the bottom, you would use the same exposure for both images, under those conditions?

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, blackpaint-R said:

Boy. And I came to Leica to get away from the EVF… 

I understand - do you have or use a Tele-Elmar f/4 135mm lens?

I tried using the rangefinder, shooting some animals where I wanted to focus on their eyes.  I got much better results with the Visoflex.  Now I'm spoiled - maybe the M11 will have a built-in GPS, something else I've gotten to like.  I also like the "focus assist" tools on my M10, but using "live view" when it's bright and sunny outside is difficult for me.  There are some things better done on a non-rangefinder camera, and the Visoflex fixes that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

So, with that huge area of "black" or "white" at the bottom, you would use the same exposure for both images, under those conditions?

Yes.  I do it all the time.  Bright sunny day, at the same time deep shadows, equivalent to the asphalt - white wall scenario.

Here’s the deal: we are talking about incident light, light that is shinning on an object, rather than the light reflected by an object when we use the sunny 16 rule.  Remember, we aren’t “metering” anything when applying sunny 16.

Thats why the sunny 16 works, it is based on incident light from the sun which is consistent.  Give it a try. :)

 

Edited by KFo
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, KFo said:

Thats why the sunny 16 works, it is based on incident light from the sun which is consistent.  Give it a try. :)

I used to use it all the time, until I got exposure meters.  I suspect that the M10 with meter will give me results matching Sunny 16.  It just feels "silly" for me to use Sunny-16 when I have that meter built-in, and I should add that between the exposure indicators on the M10, and the histogram on the Visoflex, I have been very pleased with my results.  (I still need to read the article on histograms that was posted up above.)

Sunny-16 is better than nothing, but I think the brightness of the scene is going to be important for selecting my exposure, and the meter in the Leica should take that into account......

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know!

If you’re satisfied then don’t change a thing.  For me, I came back around to a manual setup because I didn’t care for the results from the meter anymore; it required a lot of intervention to get what I want.  I also zone focus a lot as well.  You could say that I treat my Leica/lens combo like a $10,000 point and shot much of the time.  But it gets the results I want!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...