Pixii - complementary or competition? [Merged]

[ramarren]

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33 minutes ago, pippy said:

With the greatest of respect, ramarren, I'm not sure that's quite fair. As an example; in the 'Leica M Lens' subforum alone there are, in the first few pages, a number of threads dedicated to no fewer than six non-Leica lens-manufacturers - whose current offerings it should be borne in mind are in effect sold in direct competition with Leica - these being (in no particular order) TTArtisan, 7Artisan, LightLensLab, Voigtlander, Zeiss and MS Optical and it seems that the majority of these makers have a number of threads dedicated to their products

Other manufacturers whose lenses have been featured on a regular basis in other places include the likes of Alpa, Canon, Minolta, Nikon, Pentax, Konica and, of course, numerous makers from the Former Soviet Union.

Pretty much all of these threads are very popular with forumites. Two of the Voigtlander threads, for instance, run to 10 or more pages and the 28mm f5.6 TTArtisan thread presently numbers 19 pages and counting.

There are many places to post images shot using Leica lenses with 3rd party bodies and also images captured with 3rd party lenses on Leica bodies. If loloboubou were to post images shot with the 28mm f2 MS Optics Apoqualia mounted on an M body I'm sure people would be interested to see the results.

Speaking for myself I've been following the Pixii story with interest but this whole website is run under the auspices of Leica; it is THEIR forum and THEY set the rules. I can fully appreciate why posting images which were shot using non-Leica lenses on non-Leica cameras is forbidden.

Posts which are written simply to denigrate equipment, of course, is a different matter entirely.

Philip.

It's my opinion, you are entitled to yours of course. 

Note that I didn't say "not allowed" just "not entirely welcome" ... Whether the threads are popular with forum users is of no particular importance since, as you say, "this whole website is run under the auspices of Leica; it is THEIR forum and THEY set the rules." I'm okay with that, but I find it much more useful/enjoyable for a free exchange of information about non-Leica equipment that it be conducted in a forum that does not pose so many restrictions and constraints on the discussion and enjoyment of photographs associated with that equipment. 

I seriously restrict anything I post here to follow the posting rules as best I understand them. Things which do not, or for which I do not know or understand the rules sufficiently, I post elsewhere. Most of what I post here ends up being shot with Leica equipment, both lens and body, as a result. 

G

[ramarren]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

RFF is certainly a good place for Pixii but i hardly see why Pixii owners could not do the little effort of complying with the rules of this forum. Doing LUF members the courtesy of using a Leica lens would not do any harm to their favorite camera.

... Unless of course the Pixii user is looking for which of the Leica and alternative brand lenses proves to be the best fit for their camera, and wishes to show the results of using said lenses, both Leica and alternative, on their Pixii body. Which is precisely the cause of this current sub-thread of discussion. 

G

[idusidusi]

BUT what happens if one takes images with fine Leica 28/35/50 lenses, but use a Pixii and post the images in this forum under 28/35/50mm shots, for which there already exist threads. Are people saying that is not allowed? Also if one did not mention camera used just lens, would one be able to tell the difference at web page sizes?

[lct]

1 minute ago, ramarren said:

... Unless of course the Pixii user is looking for which of the Leica and alternative brand lenses proves to be the best fit for their camera, and wishes to show the results of using said lenses, both Leica and alternative, on their Pixii body. Which is precisely the cause of this current sub-thread of discussion. 

I can't speak for the mods here but a comparison of, say,  a Summicron 28/2 and a Ultron 28/2 on the Pixii would not be forbidden on the LUF i guess. 

[pippy]

17 minutes ago, ramarren said:

...I find it much more useful/enjoyable for a free exchange of information about non-Leica equipment that it be conducted in a forum that does not pose so many restrictions and constraints on the discussion and enjoyment of photographs associated with that equipment...

I do occasionally shoot with non-Leica rangefinder film cameras (Leotax/Contax/Kiev/FED/Zorki/Nicca etc.) using non-Leica lenses and if I wish to post images shot with that kit then I have posted them in the RFF. I'd never wish to post them here; it's the wrong place for such stuff.

To me the matter really is as simple as that.

Philip

Edited July 4, 2022 by pippy

[pippy]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

I can't speak for the mods here but a comparison of, say,  a Summicron 28/2 and a Ultron 28/2 on the Pixii would not be forbidden on the LUF i guess. 

I believe it might be argued that the following phrase (from the rules) would allow for such a direct comparison to be made and, it follows, illustrated;

"Prerequisite for placing a photo is that it has been made with Leica equipment and/or has a strong relationship to a Leica subject."

Philip.

[raizans]

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Aren't the rules made to facilitate discussions relevant to the Leica user community? For example, a photo taken with a Light Lens Lab 8-element 35mm f/2 mounted on a Pixii would still be relevant.

The rules should be revised to allow photos taken with any Leica mount camera or lens, regardless of brand.

[ramarren]

1 minute ago, lct said:

I can't speak for the mods here but a comparison of, say,  a Summicron 28/2 and a Ultron 28/2 on the Pixii would not be forbidden on the LUF i guess. 

Well, by the guidelines that jaapv posted up-thread, the Ultron 28 photo would not be acceptable to post by itself, and one could not show a user looking for which of the right lenses to purchase for use on the Pixii the results of an Ultron+Pixii lens in that case unless you also happened to have the Summicron image example to post next to it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I usually don't buy two or three different $1000-$6000 lenses of the same speed and focal length just to evaluate their differences on my camera. I simply can't afford to. So it's hard to do comparisons like that without the ability to post lens/body combinations that are not necessarily using Leica brand bits solo. 

Example: I bought and use the MS Optics Aporia 24mm f/2 lens on my Leica CL and use it now on my Leica M10 Monochrom as well. It performs well in both those cases. However, tried on the Pixii body, the images showed unacceptably high amounts of color shifting and edge-corner darkening, most likely the result of a poor optical match between that specific lens and the Pixii's sensor. However, posting a series of photos made with this lens on the Pixii body to illustrate how it behaves  both in color and B&W only mode and at different apertures and focus distances, and possible ways of overcoming these issues, would be illegal on this forum. Never mind posting my tests of this lens used on yet another non-Leica brand body (Hasselblad 907x/CFVII 50c) which did NOT display the same artifacts despite its much larger than FF sensor...

Do you see the difficulty?

It is simply much easier to just go to another forum without all the posting restrictions based on lens and/or camera brand used to have that discussion.

G

[jaapv]

2 minutes ago, ramarren said:

user looking for which of the right lenses to purchase for use on the Pixii

I would suggest that the Leica forum is the wrong place to look. A Pixii forum would be more appropriate.

[jankap]

The contents of the discussions in the Rangefinder forum often have nothing to do with the forum name.

In the Leica User Forum it is somewhat more strict.

One could argue, that the M-mount (of the Pixii) could be the connecting construct.  But in the meantime the M-mount is open source.

[lct]

Been posting Epson, Sony and other non-Leica pics here for many years without the least problem for the simple reason that i used Leica lenses on them. I have a couple MS optics lenses too but using them on my digital CL or M cameras is not a problem at all. Now the LUF is not the only photo forum in town and if i don't go often on RFF, it is more for lack of time than lack of interest.

[Ihatecars]

28 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I would suggest that the Leica forum is the wrong place to look. A Pixii forum would be more appropriate.

And this is where I bow out. I can understand rules and trying to keep a forum on topic, but at what cost are you willing to do so? Pendant rules for the sake of being pedantic will only push out all but the most loyal of forum goers. And in the case of myself, cause newcomers to this forum to find themselves in a place that doesn't seem to cater to anything but those few loyal forum goers.

Good luck and farewell 

I'll see my way back to the Leica Discord and the Pixii FB group.
 

[jaapv]

There is our sister Mirrorless forum, RFF, GetDPI, Fred Miranda,  DPR, and more. Plenty of choice I would say. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, idusidusi said:

BUT what happens if one takes images with fine Leica 28/35/50 lenses, but use a Pixii and post the images in this forum under 28/35/50mm shots, for which there already exist threads. Are people saying that is not allowed? Also if one did not mention camera used just lens, would one be able to tell the difference at web page sizes?

If you post with Leica lenses that is no problem and fully allowed. This is a bit like a honesty bar. You can try to get away by cheating, but mostly you will be found out in the end.

[idusidusi]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

If you post with Leica lenses that is no problem and fully allowed. This is a bit like a honesty bar. You can try to get away by cheating, but mostly you will be found out in the end.

That is how I imagined it. So in future I will have images taken by both and M and a Pixii, but always with Leica glass.

[jaapv]

You can use the M with off-brand lenses. 🙃

[ramarren]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I would suggest that the Leica forum is the wrong place to look. A Pixii forum would be more appropriate.

All well and good, but a Pixii uses M-mount lenses, and Pixii does not make lenses. An open-minded Leica forum would have created a Pixii sub-forum to welcome new users of M-mount lenses and, potentially, new buyers of Leica lenses. 

Of course, this is what has been done on the Rangefinder Forum. Which is why I suggested that Pixii users should go there instead of hanging out here where they're not really being welcomed. 

G

[ramarren]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

You can use the M with off-brand lenses. 🙃

Thank you for your permission.

Which, of course, tells you nothing about how such lenses would work with a Pixii. 

G

Edited July 4, 2022 by ramarren

[jaapv]

No. But that is of little interest on a Leica forum. 

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

that is of little interest on a Leica forum. 

Says who?

I think that any new rangefinder camera with the M mount should be considered to be part of the Leica ecosystem.