Where can I buy an old Leica in the UK?

[kirkmc]

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I recently bought my first Leica, a Q2M. Since I used to shoot film several decades ago, I thought I might want to get an old Leica film camera. I’ve seen a few IIIC bodies around £300, and, while I’m sure they’re not great, I don’t mind playing around with a scruffy camera. If I buy something like that, how much can I expect to pay for a decent vintage lens? And can anyone recommend the best UK source for old Leica and lenses? I’m less interested in collecting- for now - than getting something I can use to get back into film shooting a bit. 

[spydrxx]

I'm not from the UK, but can offer several starting points. I like Ebay, but of course you're buying unseen, and need to do some due diligence about the seller and ask questions before opening the wallet. Some of the repairers listed in this section also sell some. Your nearest Leica dealer is a good source and you usually will get a period specific warranty. I think firstly, though, you should decide which model/s you're interested in...otherwise you'll be chasing your tail all over. When you said "old", how old - 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years. When I got my first Leica it was a brand spanking new M4 back in the mid 1960s - a wonderful camera. Then in the 1990s I got an M6, didn't like it much and bought a couple of Leica SLRs, which were great, but just not the rangefinder ideal I so loved. Eventually got an M2, and then an interest in Barnack models, and presently have 3: a iif, and two Japanese models. I had a Canon P to start with, recovered it and got it CLA'd but decided I liked the viewfinders on others better. So anyway...the field for you is wide open...enjoy the search and eventually your pot of gold.

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[caymanlawyer]

Red dot cameras in London (reddotcameras) have a good selection including the LTM ones. Ffordes in Scotland, sometimes.  Leica shop Vienna in Austria are another good source. Alan starkie (repairer) may have some. Japanese eBay sellers generally have good stock. 

[Pyrogallol]

I have bought from Red Dot Camera’s, Peter Loy and West Yorkshire Cameras.

[250swb]

All of the above are good recommendations but especially consider that buying from a dealer will get you a warranty. Generally speaking if you have a budget of £300 it should get you a good camera. As an example at the moment The Real Camera Company in Manchester have a IIIf for £280. A 50mm Elmar may be around £200 but beware especially on eBay of Russian fakes. If you do get a screw mount body I highly recommend getting a manual for it, and read it before you use the camera all variations can be downloaded on .pdf from here

https://www.butkus.org/chinon/leica.htm

Edited September 20, 2021 by 250swb

[nitroplait]

8 hours ago, kirkmc said:

I recently bought my first Leica, a Q2M. Since I used to shoot film several decades ago, I thought I might want to get an old Leica film camera. I’ve seen a few IIIC bodies around £300, and, while I’m sure they’re not great, I don’t mind playing around with a scruffy camera. If I buy something like that, how much can I expect to pay for a decent vintage lens? And can anyone recommend the best UK source for old Leica and lenses? I’m less interested in collecting- for now - than getting something I can use to get back into film shooting a bit. 

Just to align your expectations with reality. The cheapest of the Barnack Leicas will normally need some love from a tech before they are satisfying to use. Even when you buy from a dealer with a warranty, it doesn't mean the range- and viewfinder will be bright at contrasty.
The same may be said of the lenses in the lowest price segment; they probably have some degree of haze which will affect contrast. 
I am not familiar with the UK market, but would imagine you could find an Elmar 50/3.5 for around £200 - I would look for a coated version.

[kirkmc]

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4 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Just to align your expectations with reality. The cheapest of the Barnack Leicas will normally need some love from a tech before they are satisfying to use. Even when you buy from a dealer with a warranty, it doesn't mean the range- and viewfinder will be bright at contrasty.
The same may be said of the lenses in the lowest price segment; they probably have some degree of haze which will affect contrast. 
I am not familiar with the UK market, but would imagine you could find an Elmar 50/3.5 for around £200 - I would look for a coated version.

Yes, I'm not expecting the same performance from a current, or even recent camera. It's the vintage effect that I'm interested in discovering. 

[kirkmc]

4 hours ago, 250swb said:

All of the above are good recommendations but especially consider that buying from a dealer will get you a warranty. Generally speaking if you have a budget of £300 it should get you a good camera. As an example at the moment The Real Camera Company in Manchester have a IIIf for £280. A 50mm Elmar may be around £200 but beware especially on eBay of Russian fakes. If you do get a screw mount body I highly recommend getting a manual for it, and read it before you use the camera all variations can be downloaded on .pdf from here

https://www.butkus.org/chinon/leica.htm

Thanks. I'm not planning on buying on eBay; I don't know enough about these cameras, and I'd rather buy from a specialist. 

[kirkmc]

11 hours ago, spydrxx said:

I'm not from the UK, but can offer several starting points. I like Ebay, but of course you're buying unseen, and need to do some due diligence about the seller and ask questions before opening the wallet. Some of the repairers listed in this section also sell some. Your nearest Leica dealer is a good source and you usually will get a period specific warranty. I think firstly, though, you should decide which model/s you're interested in...otherwise you'll be chasing your tail all over. When you said "old", how old - 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years. When I got my first Leica it was a brand spanking new M4 back in the mid 1960s - a wonderful camera. Then in the 1990s I got an M6, didn't like it much and bought a couple of Leica SLRs, which were great, but just not the rangefinder ideal I so loved. Eventually got an M2, and then an interest in Barnack models, and presently have 3: a iif, and two Japanese models. I had a Canon P to start with, recovered it and got it CLA'd but decided I liked the viewfinders on others better. So anyway...the field for you is wide open...enjoy the search and eventually your pot of gold.

I was thinking old like the IIIC or something similar. 

[kirkmc]

Here's two cameras I spotted yesterday that fit my budget:

https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/screw-bodies/15624-leica-iiia-body.html

https://www.apertureuk.com/leica-iiic-chrome-ap1081801.html

Any thoughts?

[convexferret]

I'll add that if you're a practical user rather than a collector, look at the Voigtlander lenses from the last two decades. It'll be much easier to find one in good clean working order and they'll often be cheaper too.

[earleygallery]

There is also http://www.croydonphotocentre.co.uk/

They have a few LTM's and lenses in stock at the moment. Well worth a trip to visit in person if you can.

[Shac]

4 hours ago, kirkmc said:

Here's two cameras I spotted yesterday that fit my budget:

https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/screw-bodies/15624-leica-iiia-body.html

https://www.apertureuk.com/leica-iiic-chrome-ap1081801.html

Any thoughts?

I have both these models and would suggest the IIIc to start with - in part because of closeness of eyepiece and rangefinder.

 

ILike them both by the way

[earleygallery]

30 minutes ago, Shac said:

I have both these models and would suggest the IIIc to start with - in part because of closeness of eyepiece and rangefinder.

 

ILike them both by the way

The lllc had a slightly larger body, apparently a stronger design (notice that the top plate is one piece compared to older models with rangefinders like the llla). The shutter goes to 1/1000th and was a new design.

That said I would buy more on current condition than anything else, especially with regards to a lens. Get the best you can find for your budget.

Also, assuming you need a lens as well, I would try to find a dealer with both and negotiate a 'package deal'. I think you really should go for a 5cm 3.5 Elmar with an LTM - it makes such a compact set. I'm also a fan of the Summar f2 but it's difficult to find a really nice example.

Edited September 20, 2021 by earleygallery
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[M9reno]

I highly recommend Peter Loy: I have never had anything except excellent service from him over many years as a client.

On the other hand, West Yorkshire Cameras is bad, in my experience. Not only do they not know their equipment as well (e.g. posting a Nikkor 135mm for Nikon rangefinder as a “C” lens, which technically means a lens for Contax mount, ignoring that the two are not interchangeable), but the owner (Howard Parker) also got into a completely unnecessary dispute with me concerning copious oil on the iris blades on a lens that I bought and returned.  “Oil on the aperture blades of preset lenses is perfectly normal and we do not consider it a fault”: his words, and utter rubbish, of course. Just don’t buy from them, is my advice.

[tranquilo67]

Hi,

Another vote for Red Dot Cameras. I bought to them my Standard, my M7 as well as lenses (even after the Brexit) and always first class items and service.

Best wishes,

Augusto

[earleygallery]

25 minutes ago, M9reno said:

I highly recommend Peter Loy: I have never had anything except excellent service from him over many years as a client.

On the other hand, West Yorkshire Cameras is bad, in my experience. Not only do they not know their equipment as well (e.g. posting a Nikkor 135mm for Nikon rangefinder as a “C” lens, which technically means a lens for Contax mount, ignoring that the two are not interchangeable), but the owner (Howard Parker) also got into a completely unnecessary dispute with me concerning copious oil on the iris blades on a lens that I bought and returned.  “Oil on the aperture blades of preset lenses is perfectly normal and we do not consider it a fault”: his words, and utter rubbish, of course. Just don’t buy from them, is my advice.

I've bought a few items from West Yorkshire Cameras and found them to be excellent, items always better than expected. Oil on blades isn't normal of course but if you bought via mail order they would have to take the lens back and refund you regardless.

[M9reno]

4 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

I've bought a few items from West Yorkshire Cameras and found them to be excellent, items always better than expected. Oil on blades isn't normal of course but if you bought via mail order they would have to take the lens back and refund you regardless.

Yes - the problem was not with the return itself, which they were obliged by law to take back, but with a mis-description of the lens as being in perfect condition, and refusal to cover my return postage. But even that was not what really offended - rather, it was the (misinformed) lecture to me about how preset lenses, not having an automatic stop-down mechanism, are “perfect” even when they have oil smeared all over their blades. No argument could convince them otherwise, and life in my view is too short - and opportunities for buying equipment too plentiful - to have to put up with such ignorant petulance from a shop, especially when you are a repeat customer.

[M9reno]

PS: I just checked and the same lens is still for sale, several months later.  Still mis-described as “Contax/Nikon”, when the two mounts (though superficially the same) are not at all interchangeable (this lens will not focus on a Contax).  And still Exc+, no mention of the (literally glaring) oil inside (“perfect” was the word used later by the seller when referring to this lens).

https://wycameras.com/collections/nikon-mf-lenses/products/nikon-rf-nikkor-q-c-13-5cm-f-3-5-w-vf-chrome-exc-in-case

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Anbaric]

I have bought cameras or gear of one kind or another from most of those mentioned (Peter Loy, Aperture, Red Dot, and Ffordes) as well as Harrisons, Cameraworld, and The Classic Camera, and would use any of them again.

Any II or especially III series Leica can be a good user. It's a bit more convenient to have the adjacent finders of the later cameras. The IIIc is a great choice, very similar to the IIIf but without flash sync. The IIIg has a better viewfinder with framelines for 50 and 90, but is larger and significantly more expensive. Condition is everything. You can, even now, find cameras that have been serviced recently (or at least in a recent decade) that you can use straight away, but you may have to wait a while for one to turn up. Otherwise, you need to factor in the cost (and waiting time!) of a service. Common faults include faint rangefinder images, shutters that stick or don't open at all speeds, holes in the shutter curtain, and vulcanite body covering that is cracked or broken. Quite a few post-war IIIc bodies have pitted or scruffy chrome, supposedly due to shortages that forced Leica to use a different plating formula, but this is otherwise harmless.

Whatever else you buy, consider getting a collapsible 50mm ('5cm') lens, which makes the whole thing into a jacket pocket camera. Wider or longer lenses will need accessory finders, unless you have a IIIg and a 90mm. The original Leica single focal length floating frameline finders are excellent, but may approach the cost of the camera or lens for something like a 35mm; the 90mm and 135mm finders are generally cheaper, as are the corresponding lenses. The multi-finders aren't nearly as good.

It's hard to deny that these are by today's standard rather quirky cameras, less convenient to use than any number of classic SLRs that you could shoot film with for a smaller investment. But they are a lot of fun. One thing to learn early on is the best way to trim the film, best described in the IIIf manual (p27-32):

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_if_iif_iiif.pdf

You need to trim the film leader to the profile shown, leaving about the same number of 'unpaired' sprocket holes (~23), cutting between rather than through them. This is easily done with scissors once you get the knack. There are various tricks to avoid doing this that I think are more trouble than they are worth, and more likely to lead to problems. It's easy to trim a batch of films before you go out.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Anbaric