Washing prints in two times

[Aryel]

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Hello,

Writing this whilst waiting for my prints to finish washing. 
Would there be any negative effect in doing a quick wash, take the prints out, go to sleep and full wash tomorrow ?

just in case it matters, my pipeline is as follow:

developer (2 minutes), stopper (10-20 seconds), fixer (4 minutes), wash (10 minutes), sélénium (dépends) then final wash…. I’d be interested in doing a quick wash (5 minutes or so) and a full wash the next day. 

Anyone tried this? 
Thanks a lot. 
 

edit: paper is ilford mgfb classic 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Aryel

[Pyrogallol]

The first wash should get rid of a lot of the fixer, but I think it needs full washing before toning to avoid unexpected stains.

I usually go in the darkroom in the mornings and any prints on “real” paper tend to stay washing in the bath for the rest of the day, changing the water from time to time. 

Someone will know the technicalities of leaving part washed prints to dry then washing fully later.

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[otto.f]

1 hour ago, Aryel said:

I’d be interested in doing a quick wash (5 minutes or so) and a full wash the next day. 

I don’t think so, my intuition says, once dried it will be harder to clean, like with stains in clothes

[dewittehd]

Take care, some PE-paper tends to de-laminate , separating the emulsion at longer wetting. Have been through there 😒

[M.Hilo]

The quickwash of 5 minutes or so I would say is too short. We're talking about fiber paper here !

But the idea of leaving prints in the water during the night is not stupid.

When I print I do not like to wash, I just don't like the sound. So, I just stack the prints in water. But after printing I take about half an hour and I do active washing between two trays. The idea being to get rid of as much fixer as possible. It depends a bit on the size of the prints but I change water in the trays about 6 to 8 times. And then I leave them during the night. Except in hot summers when the temperature of the water remains high (I am in The Netherlands). If your temperatures are very high, I would not leave prints in the water during the night.

The next day I just do running water for half an hour and change water in the trays about four or five times.

This I have done since 1980, my prints have never shown any problems

 

ps Paper used to be Agfa Record Rapid, from the mid-nineties it is Ilford fiber warmtone . . .

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by M.Hilo

[Aryel]

 

12 hours ago, otto.f said:

I don’t think so, my intuition says, once dried it will be harder to clean, like with stains in clothes

This makes sense to me. 

12 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

The first wash should get rid of a lot of the fixer, but I think it needs full washing before toning to avoid unexpected stains

 

I had this issue before and the 5 minutes solved it. I use an Optima system with vertical trays so  it is actually 5 minutes with running water but the print stayed in clean static water for as long as all the next prints are finished (much longer than this). 

10 hours ago, M.Hilo said:

If your temperatures are very high, I would not leave prints in the water during the night.

Looks like I better not risk it. I am in Singapore and it gets pretty hot here so I’d rather not leave the prints in water overnight (water will get about 27-30 Celsius overnight)

 

Conclusion: I think I will continue the 1 hour wash before going to bed. Looks like it is safer.

Thank you everyone 😊

Edited September 19, 2021 by Aryel

[otto.f]

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It is true though that agitation or running water is not critical for cleaning the fixer, 6 or 8 times refreshing in an hour is enough indeed. 

[jankap]

What does the producer of the paper recommend?

Edited September 19, 2021 by jankap

[250swb]

Have you thought of using a Hypo Clearing agent as part of your print wash? Making archival prints on fibre paper it is almost essential anyway, along with an extensive wash, but ordinarily it will vastly shorten washing times. Try Kodak Hypo.

Edited September 19, 2021 by 250swb

[Aryel]

2 hours ago, jankap said:

What does the producer of the paper recommend?

They recommend 30 minutes wash but this is after a washaid.

2 hours ago, 250swb said:

Have you thought of using a Hypo Clearing agent as part of your print wash? Making archival prints on fibre paper it is almost essential anyway, along with an extensive wash, but ordinarily it will vastly shorten washing times. Try Kodak Hypo.

Not really: I was trying not to add one more chemical into the mix as it would take two washing slots from the optima unit. 

 

Is there a way to know whether a print has been thoroughly cleaned?

[Doug A]

2 hours ago, Aryel said:

They recommend 30 minutes wash but this is after a washaid.

Not really: I was trying not to add one more chemical into the mix as it would take two washing slots from the optima unit. 

 

Is there a way to know whether a print has been thoroughly cleaned?

Residual Hypo Test Kit from Photographers Formulary. 

[Aryel]

1 hour ago, Doug A said:

Residual Hypo Test Kit from Photographers Formulary

Thanks, will try to find it 😊

edit: found in b&h and they deliver to Singapore. Thanks again!

Edited September 19, 2021 by Aryel
Found the item

[M.Hilo]

18 hours ago, Doug A said:

Residual Hypo Test Kit from Photographers Formulary. 

Yes, or something like that.

My darkroom schooling came from working for a b&w printer in Paris, in the late seventies and early eighties, for about six years. Apart from doing single prints for photographers, there were also the large jobs for galleries or institutes: printing portfolios. One negative would be printed a number of times. As far as I remember the size was 30x40cm and we used a neutral Ilford fiber paper.

We did a lot of testing and I'd get quite nervous, as the wet part was my responsibility. We actually made a first test washing too little and washing correctly, in various steps. And we tested running water washing versus just changing the prints to a tray with clean water. We always used trays that were one size up from the paper format. All in all it took most of a week . . . I can't remember the details, but I do remember the results affected the workflow. Everything we printed in the morning was actively washed (changing between two trays with water) until lunch. Then we'd leave the prints in not running water. After lunch I'd still wash actively, 3 or four times going back and forth. Then I'd put the prints to dry. The prints we did in the afternoon got the same routine and were left in water during dinner. After that I would go back and finish . . .

 

The above was for many prints made during the morning, or during the afternoon. We'd keep the same routine for just a few prints, feeling it was too difficult adjust the washing time.

In those days fixing was always done in two baths of 5 minutes each. This was normal fixer, not rapid fixer. We always washed at 20 degrees Celsius. Still today, I basically do the same.

Edited September 20, 2021 by M.Hilo

[Stuart Richardson]

You are best off following the instructions that Ilford indicates...I have found that it is best practice to take the print out of the fix slowly and let as much liquid drain off as possible. Then put it into a large tray with a lot of water for a short time (1-5 minutes), then put it into hypo clear for the indicated amount of time, and then, only after that, wash as normal. In doing so you will be much more likely to have an archival process. The biggest mistake people seem to make here is taking a print wet with fixer directly into an "archival" washing system. Invariably the fixer will spill on the edges of the machine and accumulate in areas where it is not supposed to be. It will also be at a much higher concentration than it should be, making the system work much harder than it should have to. In general, I tend to stick to trays, as they can be completely emptied and filled with fresh water very easily and quickly. The most important aspect of removing fixer is allowing the fixer to flow out of the paper and be replaced by fresh water, just sitting in the water is good, but having some agitation helps (even if it is just a slow stream of wash water). The higher concentration of fresh water and the lower concentration of fixer the better. It is quite difficult to completely remove standing waves and other perturbances in washing systems that can prevent the fixer from exiting the wash water. Having a tray that you can just dump out completely a number of times during the wash is a very good way of being completely certain you are removing as much fixer as possible. If you can easily dump all the water from the washing system and fill it up again, that would achieve the same effect. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[Aryel]

@Stuart Richardson: thanks a lot. I fully agree that following ilford’s instructions would be the ideal but I have to work in a fairly small place, without water that I quickly modify to darkroom at night. This is why the optima system has been a blessing. It has slots and whilst lot of fixer accumulate in the front ones, I keep some completely clean for the final wash after plugging the water in…

i will wait for the testing kit to arrive, I guess best is to check and adjust accordingly. 
 

Thanks again, lot to learn 😊

[250swb]

2 hours ago, Aryel said:

@Stuart Richardson: thanks a lot. I fully agree that following ilford’s instructions would be the ideal but I have to work in a fairly small place, without water that I quickly modify to darkroom at night. This is why the optima system has been a blessing. It has slots and whilst lot of fixer accumulate in the front ones, I keep some completely clean for the final wash after plugging the water in…

i will wait for the testing kit to arrive, I guess best is to check and adjust accordingly. 
 

Thanks again, lot to learn 😊

But couldn't you just put the prints into the wash until you finish your printing session, then when you've emptied one of the dishes use that to Hypo Clear all the prints you've done before giving them the final wash? You then know you need to wash your prints for an hour rather than wash for an hour and face the possibility of washing for even longer if they fail the test kit, and then hang around to test again, and again....... Hypo Clear started to be used to help save water when washing archival quality fibre prints, but the side effect is that it can also save time.

Edited September 21, 2021 by 250swb

[Aryel]

At the moment my plan is to use the test to check my current pipeline after 30 minutes, 45 minutes and 60 minutes. Depending on the results, I will add the hypo solution.  I was not planning to test every time, just a few rounds and add some time buffer. 

The prints are in the wash all the time during the session, just with static water. They go to a clean slot each time a new one is printed (I use one of this)  I plug the water in after printing, make sure all the keepers are in clean slots, run the water for 5 minutes, selenium toning and run the water for an additional 60 minutes. 

[Aryel]

I will order the hypo clear and add it to the pipeline. Maybe use a separate tray just for this and rinse only the final prints before toning. Will try with and without. 

Thanks a lot for all the useful advice.