Printing woes

[rhysgill]

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A short while ago my relatively new 27inch colour managed retina screen iMac started playing up, 2 logic boards and a power supply replacement at Apples expense cured the issues but the platform update installed on its return meant my former LR and Photoshop software was defunct as was the printer driver for my Canon 9500mk11 - no longer supported. Long story short, I have had ongoing issues getting accurate colour onto paper via the Mac installed driver. Became even more frustrating when the lovely colour images from my Q just weren't evident in print. The printing gospel I have followed for years in the 'lightroom' of paper type, icc profile, soft proofing and rendering intent etc no longer worked. The good news though, I've discovered by trial and many errors that if I ignore what I should do and just select paper type and colour match I get an acceptable print. Seems to go against everything I have ever learnt and practised. Anyone else had or having similar issues.

[jackbaty]

I am terrible with color, but I've been trying to print more of my digital photos. So, like you, I load up an image in Lightroom or Capture One and fart around with 1,000 settings in the (Canon Pro-100) print dialog(s), as instructed by The Internet. Aaaand, the colors suck. So instead I make a JPG, open it in Preview (macOS) and just hit print and they often look much better to my eye. Not great, but better. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

In an unrelated rant, I can't for the life of me figure out why I seem to have to select a paper size in so many different places. Half the time I end up with a 5x7 print on 8.5x11 paper even though I told it at least twice I was printing to 8x5x11 and the preview shows exactly that, but nope!

I've yet to unravel the mystery of the FOUR separate but similar-seeming print buttons in the Lightroom Print module: Page Setup..., Print Settings..., Print, and Printer....

Something's off when I find darkroom printing to be easier and less error prone than wrangling digital prints :).

Edited September 10, 2021 by jackbaty

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[zeitz]

5 hours ago, rhysgill said:

platform update installed on its return meant my former LR and Photoshop software was defunct as was the printer driver

Could you give specifics that would help understand your situation?  What iMac, what operating system, what versions of LR and PS?  How are you color managing the screen?  The Canon 9500mkII is an ancient printer in a digital era.  Someone gave me one years back; I could not get acceptable prints on it and I quickly passed it to a charity that gives computers to underprivileged.  At the time I was using a 9000mkII which had its own limitations.  Your printing gospel seems right.

33 minutes ago, jackbaty said:

(Canon Pro-100) print dialog(s), as instructed by The Internet

The Canon Pro-100 is a modern printer capable of outstanding results.  I think you have chosen the wrong instructor.  You need to find a Canon value-added dealer (i.e. a Canon dealer that knows how to use what they sell) that can help you.  While many people like LR and have mastered it, you are experiencing the reasons why I use Bridge/ACR/Photoshop instead of LR.  One approach that may help is to find a LR course at your local community college for further training.

37 minutes ago, jackbaty said:

I find darkroom printing to be easier and less error prone than wrangling digital prints

You have a color darkroom?  I can't imaging that darkroom color adjustment techniques are easier than the wide range of tools in digital post-processing software.

[adan]

5 hours ago, rhysgill said:

Anyone else had or having similar issues

Not me (except incident below) - but that is exactly the reason I've upgraded almost nothing in my 2012-ish Mac Pro Tower or its OS/software.

I am expecting to add RAM and additional hard-drives soon. When I told the private (non-Apple) Mac shop about my system and said it was still running on 10.8.3 (Mountain Lion), they said that they could install a nice new OS update for me as well. I said "Please don't!" My 2012-ish OS and programs (Adobe Creative Suite 6) do the job fine.

I think when I deliver the Mac Pro for the hard-drive and memory installs, I will wallpaper the outside with stickers saying "DO NOT CHANGE OS OR ANY OTHER SOFTWARE IN ANY WAY!!"

Just in case.

A couple of years back I accepted a "suggested" update to the Epson P800 Driver from Epson - and it "lost" Epson's own Exhibition Fiber Gloss .icc profile (which is a tad warmer and more saturated than the profiles for the Epson RC Premium Gloss/Luster papers) and others. And reverted all my existing, saved, previously-printed files to an "sRGB Standard" (???) printing profile. And lost my default settings for "Photoshop Manages Color."

Fortunately the next upgrade restored things (never did figure out exactly what Epson had done wrong the first time) - but I now ignore Epson's "suggestions."

[adan]

1 hour ago, jackbaty said:

In an unrelated rant, I can't for the life of me figure out why I seem to have to select a paper size in so many different places. Half the time I end up with a 5x7 print on 8.5x11 paper even though I told it at least twice I was printing to 8x5x11 and the preview shows exactly that, but nope!

I've yet to unravel the mystery of the FOUR separate but similar-seeming print buttons in the Lightroom Print module: Page Setup..., Print Settings..., Print, and Printer....

Sizing photographs for printing does involve two steps. Telling PhotoShop/Lightroom what physical dimensions the image should be printed - and telling the printer driver which size of paper to print that image on (otherwise the printer software will usually default to "whatever was last used.")

Printer drivers will not study your picture and adjust the paper size to match automatically. Nor are they mind-readers.

They will (usually) warn you if you try to print a larger image on small paper (to avoid the printer happily printing past the edges of the paper, and creating a huge inky mess inside.

I don't exactly how LR handles this - but in PS: first you go to the PS menu item for Image > Image size, and set the dimensions the picture will print. Then in the actual Printing dialogue box, you go to "Printer Settings" and tell the printer to use"5x7 paper" or "Letter size" or "Half-letter - 5.5 x 8.5."

Same two distinct steps, visualized:

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[Jeff S]

Similar to Andy, I still rely on a 2010 Mac tower (updated via FW and with multiple upgraded innards), but running Mojave.  For printing, I spent the extra money to simplify my life through ImagePrint, which overrides the Epson driver and optimizes all printer settings  (Epson P800) once I simply choose a paper and print size.  IP provides excellent custom profiles for all papers (and for different lighting conditions, including gray scale), and always runs in softproof mode.  I especially like that IP avoids potential issues associated with Adobe/Apple/Epson compatibility/communications as software inevitably changes.There are also many convenient editing options/tools within IP to further refine print rendering after I exit the LR develop module for printing.  A 2009 NEC screen, with built-in SpectraView calibration software, still meets my needs, although I'm getting close to buying a new monitor, either another NEC or Eizo, still the best options for photo editing IMO.

Jeff

[jackbaty]

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1 hour ago, zeitz said:

I think you have chosen the wrong instructor.  You need to find a Canon value-added dealer (i.e. a Canon dealer that knows how to use what they sell) that can help you.

That's actually a good idea. I seem to have some sort of mental block around this.

Quote

You have a color darkroom?  I can't imaging that darkroom color adjustment techniques are easier than the wide range of tools in digital post-processing software.

No, just B&W. It was meant as a cheeky comment to illustrate how much trouble I have printing digitally. Sorry for the confusion.

[jackbaty]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Printer drivers will not study your picture and adjust the paper size to match automatically. Nor are they mind-readers.

I hope someone is working on that 😋.

Thanks for the info around image vs paper size. I seem to stumble on that regularly. It doesn't help that I'm impatient. What I should do is take my time and learn the process, a bit more systematically. I keep preaching "Print your photos!" to everyone, but find it so frustrating myself that I don't follow my own advice. Plus, I enjoy printing photos for other people, and I'd like them to look good. 

Thanks again.

Jack

Edited September 10, 2021 by jackbaty

[rhysgill]

Hi Zeitz, you asked for more info, here goes;

As you ask my operating system is an iMac-retina 5K, 27inch. Processor 3.4 GHz Quad-core intel i5. 24gb ram and an ssd HD. Operating on V 11.5.2.    More than adequate for my humble needs particularly so following replacement parts. ( first Mac in 20 years needing any form of repair so can’t complain ) Screen is colour managed via i1 Display pro latest unit replacing former model where filters were gradually and noticeably fading. [ wide gamut, largest colour test reading, 100 cd screen lumin. and D50. Updated regularly. - no issues with accuracy of what’s seen on screen ]

The post processing software lost was LR4 and CS3… not inclined to throw any more money at Adobe and certainly not via subscription. Now use Affinity photo, seems to do what I need with my very limited RAW processing needs and has no problem recognising files from the Q with lens corrections. Do miss LR’s print module.

In over 40 years of darkroom / lightroom endeavours I have never been more than an enthusiast, I have no one to please other than myself but a little more than OCD when it comes to what I am happy to exhibit or show others. Never had and still don’t have an issue with the Canon 9500mk11, smooth tonal range and sharp where it needs to be all the way up to its A3+ size both on rag and baryta papers and never a nozzle blockage. It is a thirsty beast though.

Since Covid and lack of need to make larger than work prints I’ve been using Canon’s own lustre  paper and profile which comes with the generic Mac cups driver. This is where I believe the problem lies. Whether the paper’s icc profile supplied is meant for a later printer module I have no way of telling. And Canon no longer facilitates down load of their driver and profiles for my model printer. BUT if I ignore soft proofing and icc profiles, Colour Match produces an acceptable  print. Not sure I’d trust it for my more expensive papers! Bespoke icc profiles or sending important work out to a printing shop may be the only other options unless you have other thoughts on the subject.

Suspect others have had similar experiences and now at my age I really don’t want to expend another shed full of money on replacing printers and such like until I absolutely have to.

Jack, hear what you say but I would recommend persevering with the light room print module, one of the few features in LR that I miss. I too spent most of my informative years in the darkroom but guess the waste paper bin was the most used piece of equipment next to my much missed Leitz focomat V35, 30 + years of use and never needed updating !

Adan and Jeff, wish I new then what I know now about platform updates but thought I had no alternative re fresh install when when my machine was returned From repair ( third time of asking ). I now use time machine albeit a little late in life. You live and learn, sometimes the hard way.

[zeitz]

15 hours ago, adan said:

it "lost" Epson's own Exhibition Fiber Gloss .icc profile

Exhibition Fiber is an absolutely fabulous paper with exceptional blacks.  I love it and use it with my Canon printer.  However, I was told by someone who would know that no printer manufacturer makes their own papers.  So Epson would get this paper from a second tier supplier who could not be associated with the Epson staff that does the driver/profile software.  I hope I am wrong about this because the paper is so good.

[zeitz]

38 minutes ago, rhysgill said:

And Canon no longer facilitates down load of their driver and profiles for my model printer

You are using the latest Catalina macOS.  Canon stopped years ago updating drivers for your printer.  That is the mismatch.

 

39 minutes ago, rhysgill said:

The post processing software lost was LR4 and CS3… not inclined to throw any more money at Adobe and certainly not via subscription.

That is your personal decision.  But LR4 and CS3 are way out of date.  It is amazing they work at all with Catalina.

Last month I got a new macMini because I lease my computer.  (I no longer want to be upgrading hardware, having kept Dell Precision Workstations running for years.)  The dealer was amazed that I did not want an Apple Silicon mac, but I use VMFusion with Windows XP, Windows 7 and Windows 10 specifically to run old software that never had a Mac version.  It is a pity, and will never change, that Apple will not allow a Mac to run multiple versions of OS10 and macOS specifically for drivers that are not updated anymore.  It is not just printer drivers that are lost, but all the drivers for high end scanner (Imacron, Nikon and Konica Minolta) are not longer useable.  One is left with second party drivers for the scanners and no new drivers for the printers.

[Jeff S]

50 minutes ago, rhysgill said:

Bespoke icc profiles or sending important work out to a printing shop may be the only other options unless you have other thoughts on the subject.

 

See my comments about ImagePrint. But this would require additional expense for newer printer (Canon or Epson) as well as for IP. But for me it’s well worth the cost, which is a small fraction of Leica gear and other photo/computer expenses.  I also find the 10 bucks a month for the latest LR (Photoshop included) a pittance for access to the far superior controls and updates not available with LR4.  
 

Jeff

[adan]

34 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Exhibition Fiber is an absolutely fabulous paper with exceptional blacks.  I love it and use it with my Canon printer.  However, I was told by someone who would know that no printer manufacturer makes their own papers.  So Epson would get this paper from a second tier supplier who could not be associated with the Epson staff that does the driver/profile software.  I hope I am wrong about this because the paper is so good.

I doubt any printer manufacturer makes their own paper. It would be like Ford making tires (which they may have done 100 years ago). Or Leica making film.

Simply not a core competence or specialty as to manufacturing. A lot cheaper to find an existing paper company with competence and give them specs for what to make, than to build an "Epson" factory of their own.

But I am equally sure the printer makers' engineers work hand in glove with paper companies to specify the characteristics of the papers watermarked, packaged and sold under their brand.

And Epson likely creates its own software (drivers and profiles) - at least the profiles' "Get Info" say ©Seiko Epson Corp. That still could be contracted out as "work for hire," although I expect Seiko Epson's wide-ranging product lines justify some in-house software engineers.

My Epson Exhibition Fiber boxes say "Made in Switzerland." The RC Premium Gloss/Luster are marked "Made in Japan/Packaged in Mexico."

[rhysgill]

Thanks again Zeitz, LR4 and CS3 worked initially in my then new iMac due to something called Rosetta being present, allowing 32bit architecture to work in a 64 bit environment. Never saw the need to update as these two items did all that I needed. Had to ditch my Nikon coolscan as no longer had firewire connectivity with my new machine or seemingly any easy way to get around not having it. My epson scanner only works due to the good offices of Vuescan. Their drivers and ongoing update support work a treat.

 

Jeff. I've read many good things of Image print over the years and quite honestly if I had a commercial need or even if I still participated  in submitting work internationally or competitively I'd have no hesitation. Would have bitten the expense bullet some time ago. As for LR and PS,  I know I should just subscribe, and probably in the long run cheaper than just buying upgrades even if these were still available. May well do this as indeed also acquire a new printer sometime down the road as recommended by Zeitz. I know it makes sense. Probably should also buy a new film scanner !! Technology just doesn't stand still, I just have trouble keeping up with it.

 

Dyfrig.

[Jeff S]

Ironically, a big reason for my spending more on tech through IP is to simplify life and get out of the continual upgrade cycle from Adobe/Epson/Apple.  I, too, hate having to continually update, and IP works on its own and, even better, simplifies the print workflow significantly, avoiding complex print dialog boxes, etc.  I’m just an amateur enthusiast who enjoys a good print, but values my time and effort.  
 

Printers these days are also less hassle, much less prone to clogs, and also with better ink sets. They are also frequently heavily discounted, as companies care about selling the inks (razor/razor blade model).  My Epson 3800 was discounted $400 and was still going strong after 7 years when I donated it and upgraded to a similarly discounted P800, now problem free after 5 years.

As for Adobe subscription, I spend the same or less than I used to with LR/Photoshop upgrades (and far less than darkroom days), always with the latest features and camera/lens support.  Plus LR still serves well for my file organization.

Just a matter of priorities, which for me includes nice prints of worthy pics as a personal goal and source of satisfaction; not about sales or competition.

Fortunately I don’t deal with scanning. My remaining silver prints will have to serve as my last output from film days.

Jeff

[zeitz]

3 hours ago, adan said:

find an existing paper company with competence and give them specs

The problem with Canon-branded paper is that the manufacturer changes over time without notice ruining custom ICC profiles.  I guess Canon does that for cost reasons (lowest bidder).  Even though Canon may send specs, the manufacturer processes vary.  My Canon value-added printer dealer doesn't stock and never uses Canon paper.  He is a Hahnemuehle certified printer/dealer.

[rhysgill]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

 

Just a matter of priorities, which for me includes nice prints of worthy pics as a personal goal and source of satisfaction; not about sales or competition.

 

Jeff

Sentiments I admire.

 

Dyfrig