Saturation loss after uploading

[Alberti]

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can you upload the file called "L1008990 summilux 50mm-2.jpg" (the summilux picture on which I made a few adjustments) and then we can see if it resembles my direct upload

here it is, saved & from my downloads directly ito the LUF page; and it is your file "Software: Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.14 (Windows)":

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[wda]

26 minutes ago, pegelli said:

Yes, I saved it, otherwise it isn't the same file .......

I do not follow you. If you 'save to file', you will see no visible change on your computer.  But it will make a difference if a receiving computer can read your embedded colour profiles.

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[pegelli]

23 minutes ago, wda said:

I do not follow you. If you 'save to file', you will see no visible change on your computer.  But it will make a difference if a receiving computer can read your embedded colour profiles.

I don't use camera raw, but lightroom which might be the confusion.

 

My workflow on these files is first "export" from lightroom 6.14 and assign the sRGB colour profile in the export dialog.

I then directly upload the resulting jpg file to LUF and Smugmug. As soon as it is uploaded to LUF is loses colour/saturation but the exact same file uploaded to SmugMug (and subsequently linked to LUF) does not. As far as I can see in the EXIF the sRGB profile is included in this jpg file.

Nowhere in this workflow I see a "save to file" option that I might be using or missing.

Edited September 10, 2021 by pegelli

[pegelli]

29 minutes ago, Alberti said:

can you upload the file called "L1008990 summilux 50mm-2.jpg" (the summilux picture on which I made a few adjustments) and then we can see if it resembles my direct upload

here it is, saved & from my downloads directly ito the LUF page; and it is your file "Software: Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 6.14 (Windows)":

 

Thanks @Alberti and this (as far as I can see) gives me more questions because the photo you uploaded is shows different from both versions in post # 3 on page 1. Colour wise it seems inbetween and it's slightly darker.

I need to put up my thinking cap and figure out what other tests we could do to determine what is causing all these differences.

One question, how does the photo you posted here compare between the LUF site in your browser and how you see him on your computer, same colour/same brightness or can you see a difference?

[250swb]

3 hours ago, andybarton said:

The very same original file?

I don't know what the answer is. I expect that the Forum software, which is what is used to "show" the photos here, is written in a different way from Flickr.

 

I will ask Andreas

I'm not saying it is or it isn't Andy but I'm wracking my brains to remember where I've come across 'benign' software to 'even out' image posts to a forum so they display better on low tech monitors with a more limited DR.

Edited September 10, 2021 by 250swb

[Alberti]

33 minutes ago, pegelli said:

One question,

- how does the photo you posted here compare between the LUF site in your browser

- and how you see him on your computer, same colour/same brightness or can you see a difference?

- OK. The image "L1008990 summilux 50mm-2" , #2,  that I posted  & now reviewed on my screen in the forum lightbox (closely??) resembles the darker one, called 'L1008990 summilux 50mm", #1,  that you also sent me. It is 'greyer'.

- On my PC the unposted #2 shines, so from my download folder in 'preview/voorvertoning''. So I see a difference! The file is livelier than as posted &  reviewed on my screen. Same as you see.

albert

[pegelli]

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10 minutes ago, Alberti said:

- OK. The image "L1008990 summilux 50mm-2" , #2,  that I posted  & now reviewed on my screen in the forum lightbox (closely??) resembles the darker one, called 'L1008990 summilux 50mm", #1,  that you also sent me. It is 'greyer'.

- On my PC the unposted #2 shines, so from my download folder in 'preview/voorvertoning''. So I see a difference! The file is livelier than as posted &  reviewed on my screen. Same as you see.

albert

Many, many thanks!

Ok, that's one step closer, using the same file you seem to get the same result as I.

 

Next test would be to do the same comparison with a file that has not seen my computer. How does the photo with the Canon 35 mm that you show in post #7 compare between viewing it on LUF in your browser vs. the view in "preview/voorvertoning"?

Sorry for asking so many questions but I would like to know if it is something in my computer, something in my files or something in the upload agorithm LUF uses that causes the color loss.

[wda]

This video might help https://www.diyphotography.net/here-is-why-your-photos-change-colour-when-you-export-from-photoshop-and-how-to-fix-it/

[pegelli]

20 minutes ago, wda said:

This video might help https://www.diyphotography.net/here-is-why-your-photos-change-colour-when-you-export-from-photoshop-and-how-to-fix-it/

Well, that's Photoshop.

As mentioned I export from Lightroom and in the export Lightroom converts from the internal colour space of Lightroom (which is close but not the same as profotoRGB) to sRGB in the exported jpg. I could also choose to export in AdobeRGB or profotoRGB but then the file doesn't meet the LUF recommendation and might not show correctly for people using non colour space aware browsers.

Basically I have set up my export from lightroom for web viewing the same as if the guy in the video would select the option "convert to sRGB" in the export dialog.

[Alberti]

Next test would be to do the same comparison with a file that has not seen my computer. How does the photo with the Canon 35 mm that you show in post #7 compare between viewing it on LUF in your browser vs. the view in "preview/voorvertoning"?

the best way to show it is with a screen print. But the one in post 7  is the one with adobeSGB. So I will do the same with sRGB.

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What you see before posting is greyer than the happy holiday colours of the posted aRGB image on left. What is exported as aRGB on the right is of course almost just like what I see on the LR screen, just a tad more saturated

• I must add that esthetically the out of camera jpg is also more saturated than what LR makes of it . . .  with 'smooth' it is more like on the left, everything set to 'standard' is more like in between.

Oops error: the text in the picture says sRGB it is a-RGB!

Edited September 11, 2021 by Alberti

[Alberti]

So now the same with sRGB

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The posted file is very much equal to what I exported as sRGB on the right. Well done Andreas.

Personally I like a tad more saturation.

So this confirms, my LR 6.14  MacOS loads the file with better colour than Pegelli's LR 6.14 Windows.

Now my guess:

• the import of my LR is using automatically Adobe Camera Raw; I can even import M10-R files as I tested, they are recognized and displayed properly. So I suggest: install Adobe Camera Raw; again, for the newest version.
• Maybe you have an outdated version without the newest profiles; including the one of your Sony A7? Or you have not set LR to use ACR on import (there is a click-box for that somewhere. . .)
• and . .  backup of the catalogue will also restore faults (it did some magic for me last night too (imported files seen as IMG## and without profile were later correctly named & well profiled)

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Alberti
finished the post

[pegelli]

I think you're on to something Albert.

So time for a new test and new test subject, I think we've seen enough Maarten in this thread, so a colourful container ship with my M-Elmar 135/4 will be used now.

I've now exported it with AdobeRGB and sRGB

Result direct uploading to LUF:

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And here linked via SmugMug (only one version, both sRGB and AdobeRGB are exactly the same.

So you can see that comparing to the SmugMug version both direct uploads are hampered by the dreaded "grey veil"

But when you click on the photo and look at the "lightbox version" the AdobeRGB regained all it's colour while the sRGB remains "grey". You can easily see this when clicking on one of the two top images and then switch from one to the other using the arrow forward/backward. You can then see the colour popping between the AdobeRGB and sRGB version. It's very evident in the orange hull and the sky blue.

 

So my conclusion is :

1: For viewing the photo's in the post on LUF sRGB or Adobe RGB makes no difference and in both cases colour saturation is lost.

2: For viewing the photo's in the lightbox on LUF (when clicking on them) Adobe RGB regains it's colour while sRGB remains "grey"

This works for people who have a colour space aware browser, what happens when people use a colourspace unaware browser I don't know what would happen, but I don't know of a way to test that. Also LUF recommends using sRGB only so posting in AdobeRGB might not be the right way forward. I would really like the LUF officials take a look at the uploading of sRGB images and try to avoid the loss of saturation.

Edited September 11, 2021 by pegelli

[pgk]

12 minutes ago, pegelli said:

So my conclusion is :

1: For viewing the photo's in the post sRGB or Adobe RGB makes no difference and in both cases colour saturation is lost.

Depends: https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/assign-color-profile-vs-convert/td-p/10899684

[pegelli]

7 minutes ago, pgk said:

Depends: https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/assign-color-profile-vs-convert/td-p/10899684

I think you're missing the point, I'm talking about how the images show in the post here on LUF vs. how they show in the lightbox when clicking on them. I'm not talking about what happens with the overall image when you're processing them on a computer through photoshop (or other image editing program)

But I've now added some words to hopefully make that more clear.

Edited September 11, 2021 by pegelli

[pgk]

25 minutes ago, pegelli said:

I think you're missing the point, I'm talking about how the images show in the post here on LUF vs. how they show in the lightbox when clicking on them.

That might depend on the software used when the images are saved by the host I suppose. It may well assign the profile (or, less likely, convert to) sRGB. My Adbobe 98rgb files always look flat on the forum so I always convert to sRGB (not assign). Somewhere along the line something is getting remapped, because if it wasn't it should look as you see it if, that is, you use the same monitor to view your file and the uploaded file. Any change suggests a remap of a the file to a profile to me.

FWIW I just checked an uploaded image on the forum and the same file on my computer and they look to be absiolutely identical to me - processed as Adobe 98rgb then converted to sRGB for upload. If yours are changing then its most likely either the way your software is assigning the profile, or that the forum software is somehow remapping the profile (assuming identical viewing), although this seems unlikely as mine are fine.

Edited September 11, 2021 by pgk

[pegelli]

@pgk I agree it seems to be something around using or applying the wrong colour profile but it doesn't explain why my AdobeRGB profiled photo shows correct in the LUF lightbox view and not directly in the LUF post. My sRGB never shows right (both compared to how I see it my computer or when uploaded/linked via SmugMug, see post above). All the colour profiles are added by Adobe Lightroom when I export, show fine in the exif and when I look at the photo in photoshop. So I wouldn't know what or how to change the profile or the way it is included in the jpg to make LUF recognise/show it correctly.

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by pegelli

[pgk]

31 minutes ago, pegelli said:

@pgk I agree it seems to be something around using or applying the wrong colour profile but it doesn't explain why my AdobeRGB profiled photo shows correct in the LUF lightbox view and not directly in the LUF post. My sRGB never shows right (both compared to how I see it my computer or when uploaded/linked via SmugMug, see post above). All the colour profiles are added by Adobe Lightroom when I export, show fine in the exif and when I look at the photo in photoshop. So I wouldn't know what or how to change the profile or the way it is included in the jpg to make LUF recognise/show it correctly.

 

All I can suggest is saving an image from Lightroom and then opening it in Photoshop and converting it to sRGB. Then upload it and see if that gives you consistency in all views. If it does then its something to do with the way the profile is applied in Lightroom. If not then you are at least doing what I do (and is fine for me) and it must be an online shift somewhere.

[wda]

2 hours ago, pegelli said:

I think you're on to something Albert.

So time for a new test and new test subject, I think we've seen enough Maarten in this thread, so a colourful container ship with my M-Elmar 135/4 will be used now.

I've now exported it with AdobeRGB and sRGB

Result direct uploading to LUF:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

And here linked via SmugMug (only one version, both sRGB and AdobeRGB are exactly the same.

So you can see that comparing to the SmugMug version both direct uploads are hampered by the dreaded "grey veil"

But when you click on the photo and look at the "lightbox version" the AdobeRGB regained all it's colour while the sRGB remains "grey". You can easily see this when clicking on one of the two top images and then switch from one to the other using the arrow forward/backward. You can then see the colour popping between the AdobeRGB and sRGB version. It's very evident in the orange hull and the sky blue.

 

So my conclusion is :

1: For viewing the photo's in the post on LUF sRGB or Adobe RGB makes no difference and in both cases colour saturation is lost.

2: For viewing the photo's in the lightbox on LUF (when clicking on them) Adobe RGB regains it's colour while sRGB remains "grey"

This works for people who have a colour space aware browser, what happens when people use a colourspace unaware browser I don't know what would happen, but I don't know of a way to test that. Also LUF recommends using sRGB only so posting in AdobeRGB might not be the right way forward. I would really like the LUF officials take a look at the uploading of sRGB images and try to avoid the loss of saturation.

You have presented a compelling case for Andreas to consider, why saturation is reduced when uploading directly into this forum.

[pegelli]

2 hours ago, pgk said:

All I can suggest is saving an image from Lightroom and then opening it in Photoshop and converting it to sRGB. Then upload it and see if that gives you consistency in all views. If it does then its something to do with the way the profile is applied in Lightroom. If not then you are at least doing what I do (and is fine for me) and it must be an online shift somewhere.

Thanks Paul, here's my try of that workflow

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And for reference the file linked via SmugMug how it looks on my computer in Lightroom and photoshop

Unfortunately that didn't cure the problem, all photos (both in the LUF post as well as in the LUF lightbox after clicking on the image in the post) show the colour loss.

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by pegelli

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[Alberti]

about AdobeRGB:

• I saw on my M9-monochrom original DNG's that the addobeRGB was assigned to it. That is the description I borrowed from the link to "Assign Color Profile vs Convert".  Does that mean, as @pgkrefers, as being internally '- processed as Adobe 98rgb' within Lightroom?  The colour DNG's state sRGB, so implying then that the colour files is processed within the smaller space albeit at 16 bits and losslessly converted to 8 bits?
• Is that at the original file, the place where it gets assigned? I just happened to have found in the past that posting monochrom pictures benefit from adobeRGB. Because then becoming grey is very very bad. [And as well, I imagined some loss in acuity, but that of course is a figment of my imagination.]
• All this defies the lossless character of managing files.

Why it is 'commercially' important

• is that for Leica AG, the Forum is a showcase. It is very very bad that a site like Cameraderie has everything right and here that Leica foto's appear to be second class. [I already have a discussion here at home where my wife likes her Fuji colors more than my type 240's and does not see how a CL would benefit her, as she said in an slightly beschmirked remark with a twinkle in the eye . . . something she never dared to say when I had the M8 and she is . .  right] 

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Edited September 12, 2021 by Alberti