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Let’s Start a new wish list for a SL3.


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11 hours ago, jaapv said:

Hence "mantra" "People are just blowing smoke and parroting other posters. This is the Internet, remember. The only ones who know whether the camera is selling according to expectations are within Leica. And they are not telling.

Well actually the people that know if the product is selling are the retailers, and the fact is that the SL system ... and the L alliance in whole is really suffering in terms of sales and expectations. At the end of the day it’s quite clear Brand recognition is what sells Leica to a very small segment of the somewhat wealthy enthusiasts. The M system stands alone for its unique experience and does relatively well but the SL system will not if it does not stay ahead of its peers.

 

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I have owned the SL2 since November 2019, I have used it in the studio , for street photography, wildlife, portraits, travel , just about anything you can imagine I have thrown at this camera .. Sl lenses , R lenses , M lenses and Canon super telephoto lenses all were fine . The only thing I would like to see on the next model is a phase detect auto focus. It just sucks in tracking fast moving subjects. Fix that and perfection is achieved.

I have two real requests: phase detection AF for better C-AF performance tiltable backsreen everything else ist just right how it is (for me).  

BM Raw would be great. In theory they could do 8K raw, given that the SL2 sensor already has more than the required 8192 pixels in the long dimension. Here's an idea I had back in the SL days. Leica can use it for the SL3: provide a "cine" battery grip that has holes for 15mm rods (follow-focus), XLR connectors, and a fast storage interface (M2 drive, or straight-to-USB3 raw recording).

7 hours ago, Artin said:

Well actually the people that know if the product is selling are the retailers, and the fact is that the SL system ... and the L alliance in whole is really suffering in terms of sales and expectations. At the end of the day it’s quite clear Brand recognition is what sells Leica to a very small segment of the somewhat wealthy enthusiasts. The M system stands alone for its unique experience and does relatively well but the SL system will not if it does not stay ahead of its peers.

 

"Fact"? Source for your info about sales and expectations? Are you a retailer?

Why do we have to keep repeating these questions? (That's a rhetorical question, because there is no source......)

(FWIW I have no idea whether the L-system is a success or not.)

Edited by LocalHero1953
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7 hours ago, Artin said:

Well actually the people that know if the product is selling are the retailers, and the fact is that the SL system ... and the L alliance in whole is really suffering in terms of sales and expectations. At the end of the day it’s quite clear Brand recognition is what sells Leica to a very small segment of the somewhat wealthy enthusiasts. The M system stands alone for its unique experience and does relatively well but the SL system will not if it does not stay ahead of its peers.

 

Which retailers? In Europe? In China? In South Africa? A retailer only knows what is selling within his customer group. The factory knows the number of units ordered.

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3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

"Fact"? Source for your info about sales and expectations? Are you a retailer?

Why do we have to keep repeating these questions? (That's a rhetorical question, because there is no source......)

(FWIW I have no idea whether the L-system is a success or not.)

https://petapixel.com/2021/08/09/canon-and-sony-made-up-70-of-weak-camera-sales-in-2020/

TL;DR: Panasonic has only the 4,4% of the camera segment

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21 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

https://petapixel.com/2021/08/09/canon-and-sony-made-up-70-of-weak-camera-sales-in-2020/

TL;DR: Panasonic has only the 4,4% of the camera segment

Yes. Leica's share must be much less - but it was profitable last time it released accounts (2018?) when the share was no larger.
I doubt its success strategy is based on market share. Panasonic's might be though. 
And who knows what Sigma's success strategy is - it seems to be driven partly by the enthusiasm of the owner.
 

Edited by LocalHero1953
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6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes. Leica's share must be much less - but it was profitable last time it released accounts (2018?) when the share was no larger.
I doubt its success strategy is based on market share. Panasonic's might be though. 
And who knows what Sigma's success strategy is - it seems to be driven partly by the enthusiasm of the owner.
 

yes, you are right when you mention that camera sales =! profit, but Leica is a different beast, because Leica plays in the luxury and lifestyle market, Panasonic doesn't. Leica doesn't have any competition in the rangefinder market and in the full frame point and shoot market, and can sell cameras for 8k no problem, making a profit with lower sales - and that's without mentioning the lifestyle items like a 300€ leather handstrap etc.

Panasonic tried the same approach, premium prices for premium products, but the S1R and S1 got discontinued after 2 years. Sorry but it doesn't look like a success to me.

The S1H and the S5 are the only two cameras with moderate success, but the S5 is heavily discounted all the time. I got mine for 1500€ brand new, and I've seen another promotion where they were throwing in a lens in the 1500€ package, how much profit can Panasonic do with that? Note that the S5 is just one year old, it was launched in September 2020

 

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8 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

yes, you are right when you mention that camera sales =! profit, but Leica is a different beast, because Leica plays in the luxury and lifestyle market, Panasonic doesn't. Leica doesn't have any competition in the rangefinder market and in the full frame point and shoot market, and can sell cameras for 8k no problem, making a profit with lower sales - and that's without mentioning the lifestyle items like a 300€ leather handstrap etc.

Panasonic tried the same approach, premium prices for premium products, but the S1R and S1 got discontinued after 2 years. Sorry but it doesn't look like a success to me.

The S1H and the S5 are the only two cameras with moderate success, but the S5 is heavily discounted all the time. I got mine for 1500€ brand new, and I've seen another promotion where they were throwing in a lens in the 1500€ package, how much profit can Panasonic do with that? Note that the S5 is just one year old, it was launched in September 2020

 

By Sony A7 standards, 2 years is a long and happy life. Again, who knows what Panasonic's expectations were? 4 models in 2 years could just be trying a few options to see what the market likes. 

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14 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

By Sony A7 standards, 2 years is a long and happy life. Again, who knows what Panasonic's expectations were? 4 models in 2 years could just be trying a few options to see what the market likes. 

Ah, but I thought the lifecycle should be 3-4 years, because the L Mount is not like Sony that throws things at the wall to see what sticks, cameras should last longer etc etc etc 

By the way, the A7III was released in April 2018 and it's still on sale.

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8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

By Sony A7 standards, 2 years is a long and happy life. Again, who knows what Panasonic's expectations were? 4 models in 2 years could just be trying a few options to see what the market likes. 

I don't think there's any Japanese brand that doesn't discount models after two years, or 4 months even. Leica arguably doesn't with the M, but they have a very good idea of how many they will sell, so they don't keep excess stock. If anything, they charge more for run-out models through special editions.

Leica's non-M model lines follow different commercial logic, of course. We've seen a bit of discounting, but not much. The main commercial change is that they now offer a kit zoom, which I'm sure is something that customer feedback told them they needed. It's one thing to sell a $4500 body (every brand has one these days), but quite another to convince a new customer to spend twice that on their first lens!

 They also offer a "free" M adapter, but that's just to sell an extra body to their existing M customers.

4 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

By the way, the A7III was released in April 2018 and it's still on sale.

That's because they still have stock. Maybe it's a strategy, maybe it's caused by changes in the mirrorless market (4 new competitors: Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sigma), maybe it's a tax thing. Either way, Leica and Panasonic manage their inventory differently. As do Canon and Nikon, for the most part (they both famously kept their last batch of pro film cameras "in stock" for a decade, but their digicams disappear as soon as a new model appears).

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Back to the original topic...I would like to see the following in a future SL3-(s) camera: 

Key aspects

  • Perfect video AF-C (With help of lidar scanner or phase detect AF)

  • Flip- out screen

  • No crop "50p" & "100p slomo" in 4k - 10 bit - 4.2.2 - All-I & Long-GOP

  • Better connectivity

    • Fast wifi transfer

    • Lightroom CC library integration

 

Further ideas:

  • 5k 25p - 10 bit - 4.2.2 - All-I & Long-GOP

  • (Internal) ProRes/BM Raw

  • WB lock when start recording video

  • XLR audio option (like the Panasonic XLR1)

Edited by simon_hsn
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52 minutes ago, BernardC said:

That's because they still have stock. Maybe it's a strategy, maybe it's caused by changes in the mirrorless market (4 new competitors: Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Sigma), maybe it's a tax thing. Either way, Leica and Panasonic manage their inventory differently. As do Canon and Nikon, for the most part (they both famously kept their last batch of pro film cameras "in stock" for a decade, but their digicams disappear as soon as a new model appears).

Hard to tell for sure, but it's probably due to the changes in the market you mention, plus production delays and slower 2020 sales due to Covid. 

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1 hour ago, simon_hsn said:

Further ideas:

  • 5k 25p - 10 bit - 4.2.2 - All-I & Long-GOP

  • (Internal) ProRes/BM Raw

  • WB lock when start recording video

  • XLR audio option (like the Panasonic XLR1)

BM Raw would be great. In theory they could do 8K raw, given that the SL2 sensor already has more than the required 8192 pixels in the long dimension.

Here's an idea I had back in the SL days. Leica can use it for the SL3: provide a "cine" battery grip that has holes for 15mm rods (follow-focus), XLR connectors, and a fast storage interface (M2 drive, or straight-to-USB3 raw recording).

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2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Ah, but I thought the lifecycle should be 3-4 years, because the L Mount is not like Sony that throws things at the wall to see what sticks, cameras should last longer etc etc etc 

By the way, the A7III was released in April 2018 and it's still on sale.

Leica doesn't (can't afford to) throw things at walls, but Panasonic might. As for the A7, I was referring to the whole A7 series - more like one version a year. The A7III stuck to the wall🙂.

But I agree - this is a diversion from the thread.

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Yes back to the main Topic please I have made a decision to hold off Repurchasing any SL or L mount Hardware until I see where they are going to drive this platform in the next few years 

instead I will jump back into the M mount with a M10R and some nice glass, Ill hang on to the S1R (which I did pick up at a very discounted price second hand ) and use the M Glass on her for now 

Edited by Artin
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49 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Leica doesn't (can't afford to) throw things at walls, but Panasonic might. As for the A7, I was referring to the whole A7 series - more like one version a year. The A7III stuck to the wall🙂.

But I agree - this is a diversion from the thread.

Not sure what you are all blabbing about. Suggesting new business plans to Leica.  Leica is a boutique camera company out of Germany , it seams to me they are doing very well since Dr. Kaufman took over.  they produce specialize product with high complexity. If you look at what they are been making in the last few years and how many products are coming out, it is amazing for Leica standards.

We don't need to compare anything to Leica, if you want an A7 and S5 just get it! They all have pros and cons. none are perfect. I have a few different a7 cameras that are collecting dust since the SL2 came into my life. The Panasonic S5 is a series step back in specs to S1R, that was Panasonic choice . Leica came out with SL2s with no lower quality hardware, because they are German and quality is important to them. At the end you buy what you need and want, nothing wrong with any of the choices.

 

PS. Sony company has been making money for years on Insurance, that supports all the other companies they have.

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1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

Not sure what you are all blabbing about. Suggesting new business plans to Leica.  Leica is a boutique camera company out of Germany , it seams to me they are doing very well since Dr. Kaufman took over.  they produce specialize product with high complexity. If you look at what they are been making in the last few years and how many products are coming out, it is amazing for Leica standards.

We don't need to compare anything to Leica, if you want an A7 and S5 just get it! They all have pros and cons. none are perfect. I have a few different a7 cameras that are collecting dust since the SL2 came into my life. The Panasonic S5 is a series step back in specs to S1R, that was Panasonic choice . Leica came out with SL2s with no lower quality hardware, because they are German and quality is important to them. At the end you buy what you need and want, nothing wrong with any of the choices.

 

PS. Sony company has been making money for years on Insurance, that supports all the other companies they have.

Not sure what I've done for you to quote me and talk about "blabbing". I agree exactly with your following sentences, and neither I nor anyone else are criticising or praising Leica, Sony or Panasonic cameras - it's just a discussion about product cycles and new release practices - and a bit diversionary given the thread title. Read what the discussion was about and breathe deeply before posting.  

Edited by LocalHero1953
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The SL2 is great, but for me AF performance on fast moving subjects was disappointing for a system that otherwise delivers so well and I liked the idea of having 2 systems rather than 3 anyways, so I sold all SL and kept M and X1D a year ago and have not looked back

In an ideal world I would have kept M and SL, but for tripod work I find the X1D better and for handheld work I love the M.

If the SL3 has a great AF, better battery life, better ergonomics (my hands did not seem to be very comfortable with it) and more options in terms of flash sync I might be tempted

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Not sure what I've done for you to quote me and talk about "blabbing". I agree exactly with your following sentences, and neither I nor anyone else are criticising or praising Leica, Sony or Panasonic cameras - it's just a discussion about product cycles and new release practices - and a bit diversionary given the thread title. Read what the discussion was about and breathe deeply before posting.  

you are right sorry. 

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