How good is the focusing on the SL2-S with the new firmware?

[Laertes]

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I've narrowed down my search for a new main system to either the SL2-S or the Canon R5.  I'm pretty confident I will like the image quality of the Leica better based on what I get with my Q,  though honestly the Canon (especially with the right lenses) is pretty great too.  But I do love the experience using the SL2-S more than the Canon, and to be honest I really want to go with the SL2-S.  But I'm worried about one thing:  The R5 focusing system is amazing, and instantly locks on the eyes and doesn't come off, even in low light.  It's not perfect, mind, but it's pretty amazing.  I've not had a chance to try an SL2-S with the new firmware, but I've used an SL2 pretty extensively and its focusing is a bit hit or miss, especially in low light.  Since it doesn't matter what the image quality of the camera/lens is if it's out of focus, I want to make sure the focusing is good enough to give me a solid chance to get the shot.  So those of you with the new firmware on your SL2-S-- how does the focusing compare to the good Canon/Sony offerings?  Is it a big enough step forward that I'll be happy with it, or is there still a significant gap in capabilities between the Canon and the Leica?  And it's not clear to me if the Leica offers eye-detection; the Leica press release mentions it, but most of the reviews I've read of the firmware don't mention eye detection, just face detection....

I'm only interested in still photography; I don't do video at all.  Most of my shooting is people shots, some animals, some landscape.  I need a quick and accurate focusing system that gives me the shot the first time as close to every time as is possible.  Will the SL2-S do that, or should I just temper my enthusiasm for the Leica and go with the R5?

[Michael Markey]

Better than it was but still not as good as Sony .... don`t know about the new Canon cameras .

Its ok for what I do but I wouldn`t describe it as sure footed as a Sony camera .

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[Kim Dahl]

Canon's new camera has lightning-fast focus.  They stay focused.  If focus - even where it keeps an eye on focus - is a critical point for you, then it's Canon you should buy.  I do not think you will be happy with Leica.  As you write, Canon has also got some really good lenses.  And may I add Canon's colors I think are pretty good.  Perhaps the closest to Leica today.

[Simone_DF]

On 9/7/2021 at 7:09 PM, Laertes said:

So those of you with the new firmware on your SL2-S-- how does the focusing compare to the good Canon/Sony offerings?  Is it a big enough step forward that I'll be happy with it, or is there still a significant gap in capabilities between the Canon and the Leica?  And it's not clear to me if the Leica offers eye-detection; the Leica press release mentions it, but most of the reviews I've read of the firmware don't mention eye detection, just face detection....

I'm only interested in still photography; I don't do video at all.  Most of my shooting is people shots, some animals, some landscape.  I need a quick and accurate focusing system that gives me the shot the first time as close to every time as is possible.  Will the SL2-S do that, or should I just temper my enthusiasm for the Leica and go with the R5?

The gap with Canon or Sony is more like an abyss. Leica's AF-S is excellent, but AF-C is absolute rubbish. 

Face/eye recognition works well IF there's only 1 or 2 people in the frame. More than that, the system starts to struggle and I disable it. Keeping the focus locked is the real issue I think. It doesn't stick. 

You should try the SL2-s since you seem to lean toward the Leica, but if AF is really important for you, then both Canon and Sony are by far the better choice.

[hansvons]

8 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

You should try the SL2-s since you seem to lean toward the Leica, but if AF is really important for you, then both Canon and Sony are by far the better choice.

This is right, of course. But I want to point out that the SL2-S shows only in AF-C a mediocre performance. In any other mode, it does what one expects an AF to do when it was 2018. So what you get is a solid AF that doesn't leave questions when shooting portraits in action, plus the fabulous Leica colour and all the other merits that come with the brand. BUT, if you want to shoot birds in flight or fast sports action, get the flagship of one of the Nippon manufacturers. AF is their domain, and no one comes close to what Canon, Nikon and Sony (A1 is supposed to be an AF monster, so is the R5, from my experience) offer. But none of them delivers colour as Leica does. It all depends on your preferences. Choices, choices...

[Simone_DF]

33 minutes ago, hansvons said:

This is right, of course. But I want to point out that the SL2-S shows only in AF-C a mediocre performance. In any other mode, it does what one expects an AF to do when it was 2018. So what you get is a solid AF that doesn't leave questions when shooting portraits in action, plus the fabulous Leica colour and all the other merits that come with the brand. BUT, if you want to shoot birds in flight or fast sports action, get the flagship of one of the Nippon manufacturers. AF is their domain, and no one comes close to what Canon, Nikon and Sony (A1 is supposed to be an AF monster, so is the R5, from my experience) offer. But none of them delivers colour as Leica does. It all depends on your preferences. Choices, choices...

That is correct too, but the OP is specifically mentioning face/eye AF, an area where Panasonic and Leica both have much to improve compared to what the market has on offer. Both features work well when the subject is static or moving at slow speed or, as an alternative, moving at relatively fast speed but ALONE in the scene. The main problem is AF sticking. It doesn't lock for more than a fraction of a second or 1/2 seconds at best, it's really frustrating, but you can learn to live with it.

By the way, I went the opposite way, I used to have various Sony bodies, but decided to keep the SL2-s. Leica's AF-C and body/eye AF suck big time, but I like the final picture I get from this camera more than the Sony offerings.  

[sillbeers15]

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16 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

 The main problem is AF sticking. It doesn't lock for more than a fraction of a second or 1/2 seconds at best, it's really frustrating, but you can learn to live with it.

 

To acheive focus lock on AFC, you need to overlap the 'tracking focus box' with subject before clicking shutter release. Confirmation happens after 'focus box turns green from white'.

If the box continues to be white or the box turns green but moves outside of subject, focus is off. I found it the hard way, practise more and be patient. If subject is too small or background lighting is too strong focusing will be thrown off.

I found that attaching a dot sight device over the camera's hotshoe allows me to see the subject before i get it into the dot sight viewer and pressing the shutter release when the cross hair in the dot signt device overlaps with subject. It is much easier to acheive focus than through camera's EVF.

[Simone_DF]

49 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

To acheive focus lock on AFC, you need to overlap the 'tracking focus box' with subject before clicking shutter release. Confirmation happens after 'focus box turns green from white'.

But that's the main issue. It turns green but it doesn't stick for more than x amount of time before turning white and hunting again. 

Panasonic's AF-C is basically the joke of the camera industry.

[sillbeers15]

58 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

But that's the main issue. It turns green but it doesn't stick for more than x amount of time before turning white and hunting again. 

Panasonic's AF-C is basically the joke of the camera industry.

Get it right and the green box shifts along with the subject within the frame. What you've described means the AF did not lock on successfully. I see both scenarios all the time. I did not say it is easy to nail 'focus lock'. Not to mention when the focus starts to hunt due to loosing the subject you lend up loosing sight of your subject totally in EVF and you're forced to stop tracking the subject. Therefore when you reposition the box back onto the subject in subsequent frame, it will work fine. I find that using dot sight device makes reposition way easier! Not more loosing subject in EVF due to focus hunting problem.

[Malabito]

On 9/10/2021 at 4:48 PM, Simone_DF said:

But that's the main issue. It turns green but it doesn't stick for more than x amount of time before turning white and hunting again. 

Panasonic's AF-C is basically the joke of the camera industry.

have you used recently the pana cameras? I had the s1 and for photo with pana lenses, (nop using sigma ones), worked perfectly without any issues in autofocus, you dont even see the pulsing with the latest firmware upgrade.

Yes is not canon level, but far from been terrible, now if talk about video is another story

[caissa]

For portraits it works very well, for BIF I would chose another system to get an easy life. But in any case try it first. If it is so critical to you, then take the time to try the real thing before buying.

And check also other fora, e.g. fredmiranda.  (Lately there was a team of cheerleaders that he photographed with SL2 and 135mm Sigma.). ( L mount image thread, p.23 #20 )

Edited October 6, 2021 by caissa

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, Malabito said:

have you used recently the pana cameras? I had the s1 and for photo with pana lenses, (nop using sigma ones), worked perfectly without any issues in autofocus, you dont even see the pulsing with the latest firmware upgrade.

Yes is not canon level, but far from been terrible, now if talk about video is another story

Yup, and I think that with the recent 2.1 update it has been further improved. I posted it in another thread, but to me it looks that now the AF has a more secure lock on subjects and it sticks for longer. It has come to the point of being very usable. I shot a whole street festival with iAF + face/eye recognition and photos were perfectly in focus. I had to disable face/eye and turn to field only on very few occasions, like AF getting false positives, or simply too many people in the frame, which is expected, all cameras would struggle in that kind of situation.

[bpLeica]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:09 PM, Laertes said:

I've narrowed down my search for a new main system to either the SL2-S or the Canon R5.  I'm pretty confident I will like the image quality of the Leica better based on what I get with my Q,  though honestly the Canon (especially with the right lenses) is pretty great too.  But I do love the experience using the SL2-S more than the Canon, and to be honest I really want to go with the SL2-S.  But I'm worried about one thing:  The R5 focusing system is amazing, and instantly locks on the eyes and doesn't come off, even in low light.  It's not perfect, mind, but it's pretty amazing.  I've not had a chance to try an SL2-S with the new firmware, but I've used an SL2 pretty extensively and its focusing is a bit hit or miss, especially in low light.  Since it doesn't matter what the image quality of the camera/lens is if it's out of focus, I want to make sure the focusing is good enough to give me a solid chance to get the shot.  So those of you with the new firmware on your SL2-S-- how does the focusing compare to the good Canon/Sony offerings?  Is it a big enough step forward that I'll be happy with it, or is there still a significant gap in capabilities between the Canon and the Leica?  And it's not clear to me if the Leica offers eye-detection; the Leica press release mentions it, but most of the reviews I've read of the firmware don't mention eye detection, just face detection....

I'm only interested in still photography; I don't do video at all.  Most of my shooting is people shots, some animals, some landscape.  I need a quick and accurate focusing system that gives me the shot the first time as close to every time as is possible.  Will the SL2-S do that, or should I just temper my enthusiasm for the Leica and go with the R5?

I might be a bit late catching your inquiry and responding but here is what I have for you;

1- I only use Leicas (SL2 and SL2-S) with the exception of a short period where I used Pan S1H

2- Contrast detection is sub standard in today's world no matter what firmware and tweaks are used... this is especially serious in the video world. DOES NOT WORK

3- I have used over a dozen camera persons over the past year and a half. WITHOUT EXCEPTION... they use Sony cameras and I am baffled by how good their focusing is, EXCELLENT!.

CONCLUSION (MY 2 pfenigs)... If autofocus is your high priority just go straight to the best which is Sony forget about everything else. My advice is based on many professionals I hire in my company. If video and AF is not your priority and you prefer the multitude of other advantages Leica's bring (far above Panasonic even)... then swallow the unusable AF in video and learn how to manual focus and stay in the Leica club....

Hope this helps... 

NOTE: I made no mention of Canon and there was a reason for that... AF and Sony are the only game in town

[Mexy]

Hey buddy I have the exact question as you mentioned in this post.

I shoot mainly portrait. I seldom shoot landscape or video.

I just care about AF speed, AF usability especially eye-contact and AF-C track, EVF/LCD quality and the so called color science.

Canon R5/R6 has exceptional AF capability, it's top of the industry. EVF/LCD is really a joy to use, much better than Sony A7III/RIII.

What I like SL2-S is its build quality, 24MP BSI-CMOS, friendly DNG files, good IBIS, excellent EVF/LCD quality. 

The only problem is I doubt SL2-S AF is good enough to shoot portrait.

If DFD AF-C is 'unworkable' level, then should I use Face Detection + AF-S?

For older/inferior digital cameras I used before that don't have satisfying AF capability, I just half-press shutter to AF-S with central point and re-composite and press to shoot. I don't like the experience. I just double that, with SL2-S, can I let the camera to detect face/eye and half-press to AF-S and then shoot (thus no need to re-composite)? 

[Michael Markey]

The contrast  AF used on the Sl2s  just isn`t up to standard .

Doesn`t matter what teaks are made to the firmware.

The camera needs a hybrid system.

It`s workable depending on the type of things which you shoot but be prepared for a lot of frustration .

It just goes off focus at seemingly random points and never really locks on .

I`ve started using zone focus with AFC but its a so so compromise .

Beautiful camera in every other respect and fortunately I`ve only invested in one AF full frame lens for it and have decided to leave it at that .

Instead I will use it for my M lenses because I prefer an EVF to my RF`s .

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Michael Markey

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Mexy said:

The only problem is I doubt SL2-S AF is good enough to shoot portrait.

I shoot the SL2-S mainly for portraits (static, posed, flash & natural light) and theatre shots (moving, often fast, sometimes in low light and sometimes in theatre lighting). I have never had a problem with AF-S achieving eye-detect. I usually set it to iAF which allows the camera to choose between AFs and AFc, which seems to be the best of both worlds. I never use AFc on its own, but I'm well aware that others find the SL system underperforms in Afc.

AF is a contentious subject for those using the SL system. I can only explain what sort of photography I do, what I'm trying to achieve and the results I find. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[caissa]

AFs works very well for portrait. I use it very often. I never use AFc (almost). If you insist on doing everything with AFc then better choose another camera, but why should you ?

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, Mexy said:

If DFD AF-C is 'unworkable' level, then should I use Face Detection + AF-S?

Yes.

The problem is mainly with AF-C.

AF-S works fine, especially after the 2.1 update. It will struggle only if there are multiple subjects in the frame, and all of them are moving.

[Photoworks]

The last 2 days I had 3 shoots of celebrity portrait outdoor with lights.

day one about 3000 frames with SL2 and 75mm SL  F2.5  Face detect and AFs , I had my assistant monitor focus, but everything was easy and in focus. Beautiful lens ))

then a group shot of 9 people, started with zoom lens 24-90 F5.6 , the focus was just a little off even if I was careful not moving, it could have been the shutter shake at 1/80th. Changed to 50SL and everything was fantastic in focus with 2 lines of 9 people and face detect .

Then I did a reception with SL2 - 24-90 Flash 1600ISO f4.5 , when I shoot little groups it works great, take you time to focus and wait for it to be green. During speeches face body detection didn't work so well with 24-90 or 50 SL, It was picking up people in the crowd but not the podium people that I wanted. Back to spot focus.

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[LocalHero1953]

I agree that AFs with face/eye detect is difficult with groups, but that is mainly (IME) because the camera picks the obvious face, which is not necessarily the one I want e.g. a group of people on stage with the main speaker slightly further back than the rest. I could post examples, but I'm travelling at present.