Trying to improve my 21mm skills - OVF or EVF?

[augustwest100]

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Hi again, all. I am enjoying my M10M. I mostly shoot with the 35mm LUX FLE. 

I would like to improve my skills at 21mm and was wondering whether people had any thoughts on whether to: (1) shoot with the M10M built in VF and approximate the framing; (2) buy a cheap optical viewfinder or a used Leica one; (3) wait and buy the next EVF.

I very much enjoy the simplicity of the built-in viewfinder. No other camera system has come close to that experience. I have an SL2S for when I really need critical focus, like for macro, telephoto, and moving objects. 

What I am wondering is if buying a 21mm optical viewfinder is such a niche product, as compared to spending maybe a little more and getting a new visoflex, which might have other benefits. Is there a way to set the evf to show blown highlights when looking through it?

Just wondering what thoughts people had on this. I am not very experienced at this focal length and as always, my main goal is not perfection, but rather to set myself up for the best chance to learn something new and grow as a photographer.

Many thanks!

[GFW2-SCUSA]

I enjoy using my 21mm Elmarit on my M-10. I have found using the Visoflex (020) the most satisfactory method.  Using Live View is also an option.  The Visoflex is a handy product though expensive. I noticed that Leica Store Miami has a couple of used ones for sale on their site.  I don't have a mono so I don't know if the image in the EVF is in color or not. 

You have an enviable kit!  Enjoy it. 

George

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[wlewisiii]

I have a new to me Voigtlander 21/4 in the mail. I considered pretending with the 240's VF or using the live view. I also own an old Olympus VF2 electronic finder but I really don't care for it when there is an optical finder available. Instead I found a used Voigtlander finder on ebay for $160 and decided that was the way to go with it. 

Anything wider than 28mm is hard enough for me to visualize so when i decided to get the 21 I knew I'd need some kind of actual optical finder. 

[Ken Abrahams]

I have both the 21 optical Viewfinder for M9M and the Visoflex for M10M. The Leica optical viewfinder for 21 mm is not cheap. I think it would be cheaper to purchase the Visoflex 020 and better suit the the camera and your needs.   

Edited August 30, 2021 by Ken Abrahams

[JonPB]

To my thinking, there are three things you can do with a 21mm lens: get lots of stuff in the frame, use architecture to create leading lines, and capture light hitting surfaces from different angles.

If you like 21mm for getting lots of stuff in the frame, then an EVF would be ideal: it'll let you see exactly what is in the frame. However, I've never found this goal to be useful in my own photography nor successful for others, but it is a common phase photographers get excited about. Have fun with it and follow your instincts, no matter what anyone else might say.

Sidebar: The fundamental problem with wide lenses, which for me starts around 30mm, is that the corners are enlarged relative to the center. This is necessary to maintain a rectilinear view; otherwise, you've got a fisheye lens. But, in enlargement, it both distorts objects with area of interest like faces (as opposed to linear structures; again, straight lines means distorted areas and vice versa), and, secondly, wide views emphasize objects in the corner, which is rarely where the emphasized object is placed in a frame. Learn to avoid those problems and use those strengths, and ultrawide will become distinct skill.

If you're excited by the leading lines created by the wide view -- the sort of tunnel effect that can point at the main subject -- then either a TTL or window finder will do fine. Basically, you compose by identifying a subject, shifting camera position to arrange lines around the subject, and shoot; the corners and edges aren't terribly important. Some people feel more comfortable with the immersive experience of a TTL finder; some people like the rapid responsiveness of a window finder (and having no electronic lag or shutter closing-opening-closing pattern). Ideally, I'd use both: optical finders offer more dynamic range while TTL finders offer more framing accuracy. Accuracy can be important because those leading lines can both draw the viewer's eye to the subject as well as out of the frame; dynamic range is important because things hide in shadows, invisible on digital displays, that are readily apparent through optical finders.

My particular fascination with wide angle lenses is that it allows you to view a single, continuous surface -- or variation thereon -- which, while lit from a single source, appears to be lit from a wide variety of angles because that's the path the light takes from the subject to the lens. For this sort of image, there is no substitute for looking at the light itself: an optical finder is vastly preferred. Electronic finders, at least until they have a daylight-like dynamic range (which might happen after a few generations of self-lit pixels go by), will compress portions of the dynamic range, sometimes unpredictably but always intrusively when the dynamic range itself is your subject.

There is, of course, a third option: no finder. While I have a 21mm finder and I enjoy its increased brightness and lack of clutter relative to the camera's viewfinder, I don't often use it. Shoot with any lens enough while anticipating and testing and practicing visualizing the angle of view, and you'll be able to quite accurately determine where you want to place the camera before even lifting it to your eye, and then in the viewfinder using its familiar reference points to anchor against known midfield locations. When you get to that point, an electronic finder can allow you the best of both worlds -- your eye is optical, the finder is interpretive -- but I still find the dynamic range to clash more than is comfortable for me.

Rant over. Hope this helps, though!

[strohscw]

With the M10M I focus with the OVF, because its so much easier, and use the EVF for Framing and checking the composition in B/W.

[rtai]

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What do you intend to shoot and do you have any objections against cropping? Live view is going to be more precise. I shoot street with M bodies and don’t use external finders. I have a pretty good idea of the coverage and will crop the final image.

[a.noctilux]

@augustwest100

As usual, we are different, the only way is trying out these "solutions" then choose the best that suits you.

My opinions are simply "depending on the subject/project".

I had used the three types as older M user before LV, I must use the aux. VF if I wanted to frame almost accurately (no way to do that 100% as allowed by LV/EVF of recent M).

With some practices, I did use without aux. VF for loose framing which was enough accurate for me.

[augustwest100]

I think I agree with this. The beauty of photography is that it’s all levels of experimentation. I can try the EVF on my SL2S to see how that feels compared to the inaccurate OVF or the LCD on the M10M and see how they feel. 

I like this forum because of all the different opinions you will get!

given how “socially distant” everyone has been the last year and a half, I think part of the draw of 21mm is to see how close I can get. 

[Harvard Kiwi]

I bought a Visoflex when I bought my M10 as I saw value in it. 

I recently bought a 21mm and have been using it with my Visoflex. The Visoflex is big and plastic, and takes away from the aesthetic of the M body. I often think of my M10 as a Snork with the Visoflex mounted. The Visoflex obstructs part of the shutter speed dial and it drains my battery significantly faster. While the resolution is better than the previous M240 EVF, it isn't great and the blackout between shots is too slow for me.

On the plus side, it is versatile and not only can it be useful for wider lenses, but it is very handy for my 90 and 135mm lenses with focus peaking. It can also be useful with my 50 at f1.2 for critical focus although the focus peaking isn't always spot on. With the Visoflex, what you see is what you get whereas OVFs can be a little off. It also adds GPS Metadata if that's of interest to you.

I ended up looking at a selection of OVFs from Zeiss, Leica, and Voigtlander. I spent days going down that rabbit hole before settling on a Voigtlander 21/25mm metal OVF and I am confident I made they right choice.

In regards to shooting my 21mm, I won't use my Visoflex again (I rarely need my rangefinder window) as it has a deep depth of field and the OVF does an excellent job for composition.

I hope that helps.

James 

[ianman]

On 8/30/2021 at 3:22 AM, augustwest100 said:

I would like to improve my skills at 21mm and was wondering whether people had any thoughts on whether to: (1) shoot with the M10M built in VF and approximate the framing; (2) buy a cheap optical viewfinder or a used Leica one; (3) wait and buy the next EVF.

I really should buy a viewfinder, probably the Voigtlander 21/25mm which seems to have a good reputation... but after so many years of just guessing I'm not sure I would even like using one.

[augustwest100]

In my first experiment, I was able to guess at the approximate framing by using the OVF but I was using an easy subject that was very balanced in the frame. Essentially I was using the OVF primarily to make sure I was level. 

I also tried the LCD on back of the M, and the EVF of the SL2S.

I struggled with the back of the camera the most, because my super near vision is not so great anymore even though my mid range and distance vision are fine. So ironically I can line up the rangefinder patch and see in the EVF, but when I look at an image on the LCD it is blurry.

[Ko.Fe.]

You might get less reply here than in lenses sub forum.

I’m with 21 lens on my M-E for second day. 21 has grown on me in last couple of years.

EVF/OVF are about the same. 21 fov is one of the most natural fov. You see it with both eyes open. 
Make 90 degrees angle with your hands, holding in front. You will see how everything inside of this angle is in focus and outside is pereferial.

21 really shines with objects been close. It is people lens, not much architectural lens as many think. 21 makes everything far and small if it is at the distance.

 

[augustwest100]

I wanted to report back after my first session with the SEM 21 on my M10M, using absolutely no viewfinder whatsoever!

I basically shot from the hip on a one-day walk through the city. The M10M files are large enough to use cropping and straightening adjustments. Some of the shots were very weird, and that was to be expected. I underexposed by 1 stop to see if that protected highlights.

On the subway the 21mm opened up possibilities for me that I never would have had with even a 35mm lens. Outside, it encouraged me to get closer. As a mostly 35mm shooter, I never would have thought of myself as a “lurker” or afraid of getting closer to the action. The day with only the 21mm helped me to realize that that is what I was really doing. It was as if I was using my 35mm as a 75mm or a 90mm, staying on the edge of the action and looking in. 

I found myself switching between two types of focus: set on f8, and shifting between 1 meter in the close end when walking close to people and looking for candid portraits, and then setting the high end just inside infinity when capturing larger, more layered scenes. 

All I have to say is that when I bought my M10M I thought it would slow me down. I pictured slow, contemplative walks through the street, pausing to consider every shot, every shutter speed, etc. the reality is that I think this is the fastest camera I’ve ever used!!! The ISO sensitivity is insane, and you can put auto ISO and basically pick a shutter speed and aperture within reason. With a wide lens, you can zone focus. 

The SEM 21 is a joy to use. Some of the shots I took that first day are already some of my favorites!

 

[analog-digital]

Am 30.8.2021 um 03:22 schrieb augustwest100:

Hi again, all. I am enjoying my M10M. I mostly shoot with the 35mm LUX FLE. 

I would like to improve my skills at 21mm and was wondering whether people had any thoughts on whether to: (1) shoot with the M10M built in VF and approximate the framing; (2) buy a cheap optical viewfinder or a used Leica one; (3) wait and buy the next EVF.

I very much enjoy the simplicity of the built-in viewfinder. No other camera system has come close to that experience. I have an SL2S for when I really need critical focus, like for macro, telephoto, and moving objects. 

What I am wondering is if buying a 21mm optical viewfinder is such a niche product, as compared to spending maybe a little more and getting a new visoflex, which might have other benefits. Is there a way to set the evf to show blown highlights when looking through it?

Just wondering what thoughts people had on this. I am not very experienced at this focal length and as always, my main goal is not perfection, but rather to set myself up for the best chance to learn something new and grow as a photographer.

Many thanks!

O V F

[Dennis]

19 minutes ago, augustwest100 said:

I wanted to report back after my first session with the SEM 21 on my M10M, using absolutely no viewfinder whatsoever!

I basically shot from the hip on a one-day walk through the city. The M10M files are large enough to use cropping and straightening adjustments. Some of the shots were very weird, and that was to be expected. I underexposed by 1 stop to see if that protected highlights.

On the subway the 21mm opened up possibilities for me that I never would have had with even a 35mm lens. Outside, it encouraged me to get closer. As a mostly 35mm shooter, I never would have thought of myself as a “lurker” or afraid of getting closer to the action. The day with only the 21mm helped me to realize that that is what I was really doing. It was as if I was using my 35mm as a 75mm or a 90mm, staying on the edge of the action and looking in. 

I found myself switching between two types of focus: set on f8, and shifting between 1 meter in the close end when walking close to people and looking for candid portraits, and then setting the high end just inside infinity when capturing larger, more layered scenes. 

All I have to say is that when I bought my M10M I thought it would slow me down. I pictured slow, contemplative walks through the street, pausing to consider every shot, every shutter speed, etc. the reality is that I think this is the fastest camera I’ve ever used!!! The ISO sensitivity is insane, and you can put auto ISO and basically pick a shutter speed and aperture within reason. With a wide lens, you can zone focus. 

The SEM 21 is a joy to use. Some of the shots I took that first day are already some of my favorites!

 

Thanks for sharing, interesting!

20 minutes ago, augustwest100 said:

The ISO sensitivity is insane, and you can put auto ISO and basically pick a shutter speed and aperture within reason.

That's so true! I always shoot manual (iso included) primarily for two reasons. I want to have complete control of the exposure situations, with my shots of the same scene looking the same (regarding EV). But also because I know that at higher iso, you get lesser DR, right? I prefer the lowest iso when possible to get a better IQ. It's not a priority, but if I can get the same result with better quality, why not? .

But with cameras such as M10M, I would probably give a try to shoot street photography as you said: manual settings of SS and aperture, but auto iso (up 3200) for daily purposes.  

[augustwest100]

I have no trouble going beyond 6400 ISO or even 12,800…

[Gobert]

15 minutes ago, augustwest100 said:

I have no trouble going beyond 6400 ISO or even 12,800…

You can do easily more.

[Dennis]

With my M10 I use often 3200 as "night" iso, and when it's necessary 6400. But no good results after this value: cause bending.

With M10M.. pfff... 12.5k can easily become my best "night iso" friend. I would love to. One day

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rsh]

When the M

Quote

When the M8 was introduced, the Leica 21 mm OVF was changed and contained frame lines for the 21 and the 28 as the 21 essentially became a 28 on the M8.  I use that OVF for both the 21 and the 28 on my current M’s.  

The current EVF is fine and I do use it on occasion, mostly when I am focusing up close and indoors where my eyesight is not what it once was.