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The Gasman’s Dilemma


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5 hours ago, thedruid said:

I'd go another CL body used, but I 'm feeling the CL line is done, I have not seen any rumors in quite a while. The new Leica camera mentioned above, 2416 is more likely the M11 than CL2. APSc is getting harder and harder to justify as we see cheaper FF bodies emerge, the size argument is gone for the most part, see the Sony A7c, it's smaller than the CL. Leica seems happy to be a boutique company churning out various M's, Q's and SL's... A new CL2 body would cost how much $3000-3400?

 

 

I certainly hope Leica continues the CL line. I’ve been using both it AND the a7c, and actually much prefer the CL for a whole collection of reasons - the colors I find much more pleasing (especially skintones), the menu system, the lenses (the AF lenses for sony are either huge or crappy, take your pick), and the CL system is WAY sexier- tell me that doesn’t matter (it does). 

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1 hour ago, gotium said:

I certainly hope Leica continues the CL line. I’ve been using both it AND the a7c, and actually much prefer the CL for a whole collection of reasons - the colors I find much more pleasing (especially skintones), the menu system, the lenses (the AF lenses for sony are either huge or crappy, take your pick), and the CL system is WAY sexier- tell me that doesn’t matter (it does). 

PS did I mention auto-aperture for manual focusing? Basic and very helpful feature. Sony doesn’t do it. The mighty little CL does. 

Edited by gotium
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14 hours ago, gotium said:

I certainly hope Leica continues the CL line. I’ve been using both it AND the a7c, and actually much prefer the CL for a whole collection of reasons - the colors I find much more pleasing (especially skintones), the menu system, the lenses (the AF lenses for sony are either huge or crappy, take your pick), and the CL system is WAY sexier- tell me that doesn’t matter (it does). 

I hope too there is a CL2, but the history of Leica and APSc does not give me much hope. I'm not here to argue the merits of the 7C against a CL but you bought the 7C so what does that say?

You don't mention the BSI FF sensor, Fully articulating screen, IBIS, to name a few. Hey I enjoy the Leica color too, but having used pretty much every system out there in the past few years from SL2 to A7R series I don't get caught up in nostalgia.

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3 hours ago, thedruid said:

I hope too there is a CL2, but the history of Leica and APSc does not give me much hope. I'm not here to argue the merits of the 7C against a CL but you bought the 7C so what does that say?

You don't mention the BSI FF sensor, Fully articulating screen, IBIS, to name a few. Hey I enjoy the Leica color too, but having used pretty much every system out there in the past few years from SL2 to A7R series I don't get caught up in nostalgia.

I don't appreciate the sensor because I don't like the colors, nor do I have a use for the articulating screen or IBIS - that's why I don't mention them. 

The AF is another matter.

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Sigma 24mm f2 DGDN is a right proper little lens. It is better than the 24mm f3.5 but not enough for me to sell mine and upgrade.

I use my CL mostly with M mount lenses but have a collection of Sigma lenses 16/24/30/45

My 2nd Leica (and 3rd) is a M9M (and M9) This gives me what I need at present with a set of Voigtlander lenses 10/21/35/50/75/90 they all fit into a Billingham bag nicely.

I guess in an ideal world I'd like to have a piece of many pies but I have decided on a level of satisfaction I can afford & I am very pleased.

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I decided to give up on the CL2 and ordered an SL2-S and should have it in a couple of days. I really like smaller lighter cameras like the CL but really need IBIS for some lens. At least of the five lens I have only two are for APS-C. The full frame are two Sigma and one an M mount with Leica adapter. I expect if I like the SL2-S my Q or CL will go to help offset the cost.

Oh well.... 

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15 hours ago, Driften said:

I decided to give up on the CL2 and ordered an SL2-S and should have it in a couple of days. I really like smaller lighter cameras like the CL but really need IBIS for some lens. At least of the five lens I have only two are for APS-C. The full frame are two Sigma and one an M mount with Leica adapter. I expect if I like the SL2-S my Q or CL will go to help offset the cost.

Oh well.... 

I understand.  I have been thinking about doing the same or switching to a different brand.  Hope Leica Wetzlar reads along and comes with a clear signal about APSC's future at Leica.  Otherwise this will happen and it will be difficult to correct

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We all make different choices based on our needs and context. I’ve decided to wait for the CL2 until Spring of next year. If nothing has arrived by then I will reconsider. But the SL family are all too heavy compared to the CL. That additional weight is prohibitive for me and my enjoyment of photography. I will continue to be a firm believer in Colin Chapman’s philosophy of “Just add lightness”.

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Today, I took my CL to Leica Mayfair for a sensor clean, so I used the opportunity to handle both the Q2M and the SL2s kit. I like the idea of a full frame camera for CL and M lenses but the SL2s is too heavy and I’m still not sure about the Q2M.

I do have a M246 plus lenses but it would be so handy having a weather sealed camera and lenses in APSC size.  (I have the fuji xt3 and lenses too)

BUT I like the way my Leica cameras work. So hoping for a CL2. I did ask in store today but no info available from them.

it is said patience is a virtue!

 

rosie

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I'm still hoping for November '22 for a CL2.  When I look at my little stack of lenses (11-23,18,23,35,55-135 and Voigtlander Skopar 35/2.5) and think they might for a dead system my heart sinks.  I won't lie!

The recent Ricoh gr iii x release delay (having trouble getting components) did give me some hope that the CL-2 is delayed for supply chain reasons not Leica killing off APS-C.

I was gifted a Q2 for my 50th and absolutely love it, but if Leica ditches APS-C I think my relationship with them is done (barring a Q3. ..).  SL-2 is too big.  Don't want the delicateness of the M-system and to only manual focus.  I would get a Ricoh gr iii x for the tighter focal length and call it a day.

Edited by SoCalLeicanator
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On 10/6/2021 at 8:21 AM, Le Chef said:

We all make different choices based on our needs and context. I’ve decided to wait for the CL2 until Spring of next year. If nothing has arrived by then I will reconsider. But the SL family are all too heavy compared to the CL. That additional weight is prohibitive for me and my enjoyment of photography. I will continue to be a firm believer in Colin Chapman’s philosophy of “Just add lightness”.

I was worried the SL2-S would going to be too big and heavy for me. It came in today and while it's much heavier than a Q or CL it feels more solid than heavy in hand. I'm amazed by the IBIS. I'm taking pictures I could never hand hold with my CL and ISO 6400 looks more like ISO 800 on the CL. Now comes the hard part. Deciding which of my cameras I'm going to sell off to pay for it. So far I've only tested the Sigma 45mm f/2.8 DG DN lens, but it's working great so far. I also have a Sigma 35mm, and Voitlander 40mm to test. But this is going to open up longer lens that were hard to hold on the CL.

I hope the CL2 comes out sooner then later and I agree "Just add lightness" has much to go for it. I've owned a lot of Miata's. They might not be a Lotus but as close as I will ever get.

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6 hours ago, Driften said:

It came in today

Do keep us posted in the CL forum re your progress (or provide a link if you start posting under SL2 instead).  Many of us face the same dilemma and would love to hear your experiences.  Thanks

Edited by rob_w
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It’s not as if there were significant fundamental performance issues with the CL. Most of us are looking for incremental improvements like IBIS, not the more fanciful shift to a full frame sensor. If we get what we want the performance will still likely be lower than the SL2, so Leica can preserve their hierarchy. If it’s really incremental improvements we are looking for then maybe there isn’t as much urgency to replace the CL as we might believe. Though “New and Improved” is always going to be appealing…

What is of more concern is if Leica were to drop the CL, what would you do with the TL lenses you bought? I have: TL11-23, TL18-56, TL23 and TL55-135. Do I simply keep the CL until it falls apart? I would still need to buy new lenses for whatever camera I would choose to replace it with.

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4 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

It’s not as if there were significant fundamental performance issues with the CL. Most of us are looking for incremental improvements like IBIS, not the more fanciful shift to a full frame sensor. If we get what we want the performance will still likely be lower than the SL2, so Leica can preserve their hierarchy. If it’s really incremental improvements we are looking for then maybe there isn’t as much urgency to replace the CL as we might believe. Though “New and Improved” is always going to be appealing…

What is of more concern is if Leica were to drop the CL, what would you do with the TL lenses you bought? I have: TL11-23, TL18-56, TL23 and TL55-135. Do I simply keep the CL until it falls apart? I would still need to buy new lenses for whatever camera I would choose to replace it with.

That's it exactly.   I would appreciate IBIS, but right now I'm not sure what else I need/want from a CL2, or even if I want one at all.   I have the 18-56, 55-135, 35TL 18 TL, Sigma 56.  As long as (touch wood) my CL develops no problems it will be on duty for it's fifth Christmas day and if ever I feel able to get on a plane again will accompany me on a few more travels.  My feelings on the CL are such that if mine gave up the ghost, I'd probably just buy another one.   I  hope Leica don't step away from APS-C, but wonder if there's a chance that Panasonic could come out with an L mount crop body, it would keep the TL lenses relevant.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Le Chef said:

It’s not as if there were significant fundamental performance issues with the CL. Most of us are looking for incremental improvements like IBIS, not the more fanciful shift to a full frame sensor......

I agree the thing I need the most is IBIS to be able to use longer lens with the CL. My hands shake too much to hold longer than 60mm except in perfect light. It would be nice to have the viewfinder or performance of the SL2-S's sensor, but it's IBIS that mattered most.

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15 hours ago, rob_w said:

Do keep us posted in the CL forum re your progress (or provide a link if you start posting under SL2 instead).  Many of us face the same dilemma and would love to hear your experiences.  Thanks

I took the SL2-S out for a couple of hours of shooting the the size and weight didn't matter to me after about fifteen minutes. That said I wasn't carrying some heavy Leica glass, just a Sigma 45mm DC DN. 

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13 hours ago, DirkS said:

There is a lot of competition in the FF T-lenses market. If Leica wants to sell lenses, one should concentrate on the APS-C market, where no specialized lenses from competitors exist.

I think Fuji might disagree about the APSC market.

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1 hour ago, DirkS said:

Fuji offers t-mount lenses? Otherwise they were no competion for Leica selling APS-C-lenses for the t-mount-system.

No but they both offer APS-C lenses. 

If Leica wants to sell lenses, one should concentrate on the APS-C market, where no specialized lenses from competitors exist.
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