Mitchell T. Ness CSC Posted August 23, 2021 Share #1 Posted August 23, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am a Director of Photography from Toronto... I have a set of Leica R full frame lens that have been converted (re-housed) into PL Mount Cinema Primes by True Lens Services in the UK - 19mm, 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 100mm Macro, 135m... my 19mm has a small scratch on the front element and I am hoping to have it polished and recoated. A film lens technician in Toronto removed the front element from the housing and I sent the element to BMV Optical in Ottawa for polishing and re-coating and there is an issue - the front element has a metal ring on the edge of the element and it protrudes past the edge of the glass which makes it impossible for BMV to polish and re-coat. I have attached pictures of the front element below. So here's my question - does anyone know if this ring can be removed from the front element? If not then can I purchase a new front element from Leica? Do they still manufacture these elements? The Lens serial number is 3879144 - from my research it appears the lens was manufactured in 1999. I look forward to reading the responses Cheers Mitchell T. Ness CSC Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/323848-polishing-and-re-coating-front-element-of-a-19mm-r-v2-elmarit/?do=findComment&comment=4262044'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 23, 2021 Posted August 23, 2021 Hi Mitchell T. Ness CSC, Take a look here Polishing and re-coating front element of a 19mm R (V2) Elmarit. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JonPB Posted August 29, 2021 Share #2 Posted August 29, 2021 I don’t have an answer, but after a few days of silence here… Don Goldberg of DAG Camera might be able to help. He’s in Wisconsin, so perhaps not too far for shipping delays. He still does CLAs of R lenses, and is widely regarded as an expert Leica technician. Since getting timely service of Leica gear can be more about who you know than about how much you’re willing to spend, it wouldn’t hurt to have an ongoing relationship with someone like Don. I’d also reach out to Leica. Could be that there’s a replacement part in a drawer somewhere. I strongly doubt they are still manufactured, though; it has probably been 15+ years since their last production batch, and since then their major manufacturing facilities have been relocated and likely redesigned. But, if they have blanks of the same type of glass, it may only be a matter of digging up the specs and setting up the tooling. It might also be worth reaching out to Leitz Cine — a different corporation from Leica Camera with, I believe, at least partly different design and manufacturing facilities, so perhaps different service structure as well. While the Leitz Cine folks would probably say, “not our product,” they might put you in touch with someone who has different resources than the person Leica service assigns the ticket to. But I’d guess that Leitz Cine would be better equipped to make a one-off replacement part than Leica Camera. Hope this helps! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZN Posted August 30, 2021 Share #3 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) I doubt Leica will be able to help you. Worth a try of course, but don't be surprised if they don't. They didn't help me with my "obsolete" 35mm R-Summilux or IIIG LTM camera =/ Did a quick google search and found the following link from 2005. Some guy in the Ukraine - might be worth a try getting in touch. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/lens-repolishing-recoating-on-the-cheap.9270/ Edited August 30, 2021 by AZN 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaR10 Posted August 30, 2021 Share #4 Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) Mitchell, JonPB above gave you a best solution. Call Don Goldberg at 608-835-3342. His website: www.dagcamera.com . Don use to be a Leica technician and he repairs all my M gear once it goes out of warranty. When I owned the R system, he did all my gear. He repairs and does miracles for R lenses. He might even have a front element for your lens. Don does superb work and often does repairs that even Leica will or cannot do. I referred another Canadian to Don when he bought a used old stock R lens and it was almost totally frozen from the lubricant and decentered. From what my acquiantance wrote, Don made his lens into like new condition. It is worth your call. r/ Mark Edited August 30, 2021 by LeicaR10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchell T. Ness CSC Posted August 30, 2021 Author Share #5 Posted August 30, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 12:15 PM, JonPB said: I don’t have an answer, but after a few days of silence here… Don Goldberg of DAG Camera might be able to help. He’s in Wisconsin, so perhaps not too far for shipping delays. He still does CLAs of R lenses, and is widely regarded as an expert Leica technician. Since getting timely service of Leica gear can be more about who you know than about how much you’re willing to spend, it wouldn’t hurt to have an ongoing relationship with someone like Don. I’d also reach out to Leica. Could be that there’s a replacement part in a drawer somewhere. I strongly doubt they are still manufactured, though; it has probably been 15+ years since their last production batch, and since then their major manufacturing facilities have been relocated and likely redesigned. But, if they have blanks of the same type of glass, it may only be a matter of digging up the specs and setting up the tooling. It might also be worth reaching out to Leitz Cine — a different corporation from Leica Camera with, I believe, at least partly different design and manufacturing facilities, so perhaps different service structure as well. While the Leitz Cine folks would probably say, “not our product,” they might put you in touch with someone who has different resources than the person Leica service assigns the ticket to. But I’d guess that Leitz Cine would be better equipped to make a one-off replacement part than Leica Camera. Hope this helps! Jon Thank you for your response - I am familiar with Don and his work - sent a 50mm Sumilux to him a couple of years ago - his work is amazing! The company that does the rehousing of the Leica's in the UK is CineScope Optics and they hire True Lens Services who have designed and actually do the hands-on re-housing of the lens... I reached out to Gavin Whitehurst at TLS and they are going to cut off the metal ring (they have done this in the past) and then supply an adaptor ring to be used after the lens has been polished and re-coated... IF you get the opportunity please check out their work - their re-housing of lens (coverting Leica and Canon still lens to full frame cine lens) is 2nd to none!... https://www.cinescopeoptics.com/products/ https://www.truelens.co.uk Cheers Mitch Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchell T. Ness CSC Posted August 30, 2021 Author Share #6 Posted August 30, 2021 15 hours ago, AZN said: I doubt Leica will be able to help you. Worth a try of course, but don't be surprised if they don't. They didn't help me with my "obsolete" 35mm R-Summilux or IIIG LTM camera =/ Did a quick google search and found the following link from 2005. Some guy in the Ukraine - might be worth a try getting in touch. https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/lens-repolishing-recoating-on-the-cheap.9270/ Thank you for the reply and will definitely check out your link Cheers Mitch Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonPB Posted August 30, 2021 Share #7 Posted August 30, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mitch, Glad you found not just a solution but a proven way forward. I've seen "conversion" services before that were a change of lens mount and addition of gears, but it looks like Cinescope is doing these lenses justice. Impressive! Thanks for encouraging me to look more into it. Cheers, Jon Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchell T. Ness CSC Posted September 1, 2021 Author Share #8 Posted September 1, 2021 On 8/30/2021 at 7:05 PM, JonPB said: Mitch, Glad you found not just a solution but a proven way forward. I've seen "conversion" services before that were a change of lens mount and addition of gears, but it looks like Cinescope is doing these lenses justice. Impressive! Thanks for encouraging me to look more into it. Cheers, Jon Jon A majority of films and dramatic series are now shooting full frame either with an Arri Alexa LF, Sony Venice or Red and there is a need for full frame lens and especially vintage full frame glass like Leica, Canon or Nikon primes. There are some companies out there that change the lens mount to a PL, de-click the aperture ring and add a focus ring to the lens barrel - this is a cheaper way of converting the lens for full frame cinematography but the travel on the barrel for focus to to short and makes it very difficult for the 1st AC (focus puller). But as the old saying goes - you get what you pay for - TLS uses just the glass - the entire housing is their design and I feel the best of the best! The lens feel and look like Cooke S5's with their construction... Are you a photographer? Collect vintage Leica glass? Love to hear about your equipment and work. Again, thanks for responding to my post and all the best. Cheers Mitch Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonPB Posted September 1, 2021 Share #9 Posted September 1, 2021 Heh. I took apart my Elmarit-R 35 yesterday and shimmed my Vario-Elmar 21-35, so I can say: declicking is almost automatic and replacing a lens mount is easier than changing oil in a car. The trick is getting everything back together so the focus is parallel to the sensor at the indicated distance. For me, as a stills hobbyist, that kind of failure causes mild disappointment; for you, it could devalue dozens to hundreds of people-days, their equipment, and the location, which often enough cannot be redone at any price. What impresses me most with Cinescope is the re-gearing of focus travel to provide a consistent throw. I'm sure that makes a world of difference to the focus puller and it also suggests that other mechanical issues were modified, making it relatively easy to clean and adjust so you can more reliably get what you expect. The right tool for the job. The mechanical elegance, suitability for purpose, and reuse of existing tools is all very pleasing. Seeing gears glued onto a Summilux always made me a bit sad, but these conversions do justice to the optics. Which reminds me: the wider R lenses are more sensitive to sensor filter thickness than most SLR lenses. The later Elmarit 28, which you likely have, is included in that, but I don't know about the 19. I'd be happy to go into more detail if this isn't a familiar topic. I'd collect photo tools if I had the means, but mostly I shoot with Leica because there aren't many viable alternatives that satisfy my preferences. I shoot light primarily and subjects only secondarily, so the optical finder and low chromatic aberrations of Leica equipment are highly desirable. The recent crop of mirrorless cameras have stunning lenses, though, so I might go a different direction if I had to start from the ground up. But my first Leica, that Elmarit 35, was revelatory: the Pentax and Takumar lenses I used before that (and since, to an extent) have lots of worthwhile attributes but not that sort of translucent presentation I love in Leica's 70s to 90s designs. My primary output is in black and white inkjet prints -- if you're curious, you can look up Piezography, my technology of choice. Mostly I engage photography for the meditative experience rather than to share, but I'm trying to share more and a few recent snapshots are in the forum's gallery here. Post-pandemic, I think my vision is changing away from abstracts like those, but I'm not sure what toward, so I'm spending an excessive amount of time looking at and thinking about photos these days. I'm not sure how to ask about your craft, since so much of it is in the service of realizing someone else's vision. Do you make demo reels from your projects that show off the more interesting results of your skill? Or, pursue projects for recreation? If so, or otherwise, I'd enjoy watching some of your work. It occurs to me that while I've learned some about cine production, I haven't studied cinematography as anything more than a blurred collection of stills, and that seems like a promising line of inquiry for me. If you have any thoughts or favored ... methods, creators, philosophy ... I'd enjoy any pointers you might offer. Cheers, Jon Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 2, 2021 Share #10 Posted September 2, 2021 (edited) Surely a small scratch on the front element is unlikely to affect imaging ... whereas repolishing and recoating could affect same? No guarantee that repolishing (if possible) would not affect the lens element's performance ... especially if eg the polishing was uneven .. and the coating might not be to the same specification or type as Leica's original. I have a Leica M 90mm APO Summicron with a chipped front element ... its imaging is fine ... no detriment whatsoever. I also have a Leica R 19mm Mk II which is used regularly .. I have posted a number of recent pics taken with it on the forum. My lens has very obvious interior black specks visible when held up to the light ... paint specks caused by the lens elements' edge paint degradation. I initially thought the lens' performance would be ruined by the specks ... they appear far worse than any minor front element scratch. They have no effect whatsoever on imaging. OP you could be worrying unnecessarily. I'd be more concerned about the possibility of the repolishing /recoating compromising the lens' performance. Furthermore, unlikely Leica would have a spare front element ... I recall reading they sold all their R lens spares ... and further-furthermore any replacement front element is usually 'batch-matched' to the other elements. If I wanted a replacement front element for my 90/2 M APO it would have to be from the same production batch. A front lens element from a different production batch would not necessarily image correctly. Too many photographers worry far too much about minor lens element scratches. Usually only rear element scratches cause problems. dunk Edited September 2, 2021 by dkCambridgeshire 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted September 4, 2021 Share #11 Posted September 4, 2021 (edited) +1 You could try, if you can force light reflections due to the scratch. With a strong light from the side. 1) Polishing? I would not trust that. Remember: surgery successful, but patient dead. 1) Prof Dijkstra had a nice quotation too, he visited my group in computer diagnostics. "An undetected error does not exist". Think about that .... Edited September 4, 2021 by jankap 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted September 4, 2021 Share #12 Posted September 4, 2021 58 minutes ago, jankap said: +1 You could try, if you can force light reflections due to the scratch. With a strong light from the side. 1) Polishing? I would not trust that. Remember: surgery successful, but patient dead. 1) Prof Dijkstra had a nice quotation too, he visited my group in computer diagnostics. "An undetected error does not exist". Think about that .... ... VG analogy Jan dunk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 5, 2021 Share #13 Posted September 5, 2021 You are aware that polishing and recoating will inevitably reduce the optical performance of the lens? The tolerances are measured in nanometers, Leica uses a laser interferometer to check the lens elements during production. If a scratch does not impair the lens, and on a front element it won't, it is best to leave it, or at worst fill it with black to avoid flare. https://www.diyphotography.net/can-you-still-take-photos-even-with-a-cracked-lens/ In fact, you can break the front element with a hammer if you wish... https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2008/10/front-element-scratches/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted September 5, 2021 Share #14 Posted September 5, 2021 Perhaps the discussed service is aimed at equipment collectors ....... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMF Posted September 5, 2021 Share #15 Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) On 8/23/2021 at 1:14 PM, Mitchell T. Ness CSC said: I am a Director of Photography from Toronto... I have a set of Leica R full frame lens that have been converted (re-housed) into PL Mount Cinema Primes by True Lens Services in the UK - 19mm, 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 100mm Macro, 135m... my 19mm has a small scratch on the front element and I am hoping to have it polished and recoated. A film lens technician in Toronto removed the front element from the housing and I sent the element to BMV Optical in Ottawa for polishing and re-coating and there is an issue - the front element has a metal ring on the edge of the element and it protrudes past the edge of the glass which makes it impossible for BMV to polish and re-coat. I have attached pictures of the front element below. So here's my question - does anyone know if this ring can be removed from the front element? If not then can I purchase a new front element from Leica? Do they still manufacture these elements? The Lens serial number is 3879144 - from my research it appears the lens was manufactured in 1999. I look forward to reading the responses Cheers Mitchell T. Ness CSC Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Hello Mitchell, I would advise you to call Duclos Lenses in Los Angeles. They offer the polishing and recoating service and did a great job on an old cine lens of mine which had a similar issue. https://www.ducloslenses.com Best regards, Jean-Marc Ferriere, Cinematographer. Edited September 5, 2021 by JMF Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthias Ashford Posted May 10, 2022 Share #16 Posted May 10, 2022 Hi all, looking for some advice about repairing a Leica R 19mm V1. The coating has gone on front and is causing significant a diffusion / halation effect. The lens was £2500 so I’m keen to get it repaired if I can. Options- 1. find a way to get the front element out and send to a company in Ukraine that can polish and recoat for £100. However, can’t work out how to get front element off and seems like the metal ring on front will make this impossible anyway? 2. Send to duclos who are offering (not guaranteed) repair for about $1200-1500 plus $150 inspection charge plus cost of shipping from UK to US. 3. do nothing and give up! 4. try and sell for parts? Not sure if it’s with anything now though any advice appreciated! Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkT Posted September 28, 2022 Share #17 Posted September 28, 2022 Am 23.8.2021 um 18:14 schrieb Mitchell T. Ness CSC: I am a Director of Photography from Toronto... I have a set of Leica R full frame lens that have been converted (re-housed) into PL Mount Cinema Primes by True Lens Services in the UK - 19mm, 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 100mm Macro, 135m... my 19mm has a small scratch on the front element and I am hoping to have it polished and recoated. A film lens technician in Toronto removed the front element from the housing and I sent the element to BMV Optical in Ottawa for polishing and re-coating and there is an issue - the front element has a metal ring on the edge of the element and it protrudes past the edge of the glass which makes it impossible for BMV to polish and re-coat. I have attached pictures of the front element below. So here's my question - does anyone know if this ring can be removed from the front element? If not then can I purchase a new front element from Leica? Do they still manufacture these elements? The Lens serial number is 3879144 - from my research it appears the lens was manufactured in 1999. I look forward to reading the responses Cheers Mitchell T. Ness CSC Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkT Posted September 28, 2022 Share #18 Posted September 28, 2022 Am 23.8.2021 um 18:14 schrieb Mitchell T. Ness CSC: I am a Director of Photography from Toronto... I have a set of Leica R full frame lens that have been converted (re-housed) into PL Mount Cinema Primes by True Lens Services in the UK - 19mm, 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, 90mm, 100mm Macro, 135m... my 19mm has a small scratch on the front element and I am hoping to have it polished and recoated. A film lens technician in Toronto removed the front element from the housing and I sent the element to BMV Optical in Ottawa for polishing and re-coating and there is an issue - the front element has a metal ring on the edge of the element and it protrudes past the edge of the glass which makes it impossible for BMV to polish and re-coat. I have attached pictures of the front element below. So here's my question - does anyone know if this ring can be removed from the front element? If not then can I purchase a new front element from Leica? Do they still manufacture these elements? The Lens serial number is 3879144 - from my research it appears the lens was manufactured in 1999. I look forward to reading the responses Cheers Mitchell T. Ness CSC Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkT Posted September 28, 2022 Share #19 Posted September 28, 2022 the Frontelement is pressed in the alloy ring to get the element out you have to mill the edge around the glas after i heat it up and the glass fall out easy Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/323848-polishing-and-re-coating-front-element-of-a-19mm-r-v2-elmarit/?do=findComment&comment=4519638'>More sharing options...
monkT Posted November 8, 2022 Share #20 Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) new coating on the 19mm Elmarit after recoating sealed in unit and ready for installation fully restoration https://www.flickr.com/photos/lensrepair/albums/72177720303522996 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited November 8, 2022 by monkT 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/323848-polishing-and-re-coating-front-element-of-a-19mm-r-v2-elmarit/?do=findComment&comment=4559218'>More sharing options...
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