Mechanical Construction of Summarit Lenses?

[lct]

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11 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Yeah I wrote plastic FEEL rubber but it got lost somehow.

I have the 90/2.4 with me here. The feel of the rubber grip seems similar to that of my R lenses but i have no idea if this is natural or plastic rubber TBH.

[mmradman]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:28 AM, wattsy said:

Yes, that's the one. I did read somewhere that the part that split isn't actually plastic but some kind of cheap cast aluminium-silicon alloy (Silumin?). Quality plastic might have actually been a suitable material.

Talking of reputational damage, aluminium alloy casting product  can be nasty, I still have bitter taste from my 1960s childhood after toys made in Hong Kong in were breaking, probably made of some cheap metal alloy based on aluminium and zinc.

It is my understanding that making plastic parts via injection moulding is very expensive, not so much parts itself but tooling.  Once you make tooling you could theoretically produce infinite number of parts at near zero cost.  On the other hand lump of metal is cheap, using automated CNC to fabricate ideal for small batch, I suppose several thousand per year qualifies as small batch.

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[Adam Bonn]

I've partially disassembled my 35/2.4 rit, but I don't have any other Leica lens disassembly experience to compare it too.

However FWIW:

Focusing with it was annoyingly too easy, a light breeze would move the focus ring (fix: clean and re-grease helicoids) 

Aperture ring was also far too easy to turn, it almost felt clickless!! (fix, far too much of a bodge to ever admit too in a public forum)

And from memory as this was a while back...

Helicoid is a mixture of brass and (what I assume to be) aluminium 

aperture click spring is a type of leaf spring 

Not really the OP, but IQ is ok... visible distortion and not the sharpest thing in my camera bag at anything around wide open

Nice lens hood that it doesn't really need (pretty flare proof), really small and light, love the focus tab and now mine clicks nicely on the a' ring and has a nice feeling focus ring I'm happy enough with it

I also have a 90/2.5

Frankly IMHO (being ribbed for your dis/pleasure aside) it feels pretty much the same as a V5 cron 50 in terms of tactile stuff, but I never had need to take them apart so can't comment. (Don't think the 90 has more flares than the 1970s though)

 

[pippy]

The following is just IMX...

I have the 75mm and 90mm Summarits and have never once experienced any issues whatsoever concerning the quality of their construction. Optically, having tested them all on a digi-M, the 90 out-performs both of my (very lovely and seriously well-liked) v3 pre-asph Summicrons as well as my 'Thin' Tele-Elmarit. When I carried out some exceedingly tedious 'Near-focus / Back-focus' tests on some M-mount lenses - from 21mm to 135mm - these two Summarits were the least affected - and by quite a margin.

The 'Rubber Ring' was not liked by the true 'LeicaMan' (of course) but, in practice, I find it gives better purchase than the metal milled-ring usually to be found on long lenses (YMMV). Neither of these Summarit lenses - which are now 8 & 9 years old - has shown the slightest degradation in terms of the rubber used nor has either 'loosened-up' in any way with regards focussing nor aperture changes through usage; they are both as smooth and as precise as ever they were.

If I were to nit-pick I would have preferred heavier-gauge metal for the front lens cap and the screw-in hoods. But that's all. As lenses go they are superb in every way.

Philip.

EDIT : Sorry! Forgot to ask for dark-red Himalayan Yak Felt to be re-instated within the lens caps for 'snugness'.

Edited August 24, 2021 by pippy

[Michael Geschlecht]

3 hours ago, pippy said:

The following is just IMX...

I have the 75mm and 90mm Summarits and have never once experienced any issues whatsoever concerning the quality of their construction. Optically, having tested them all on a digi-M, the 90 out-performs both of my (very lovely and seriously well-liked) v3 pre-asph Summicrons as well as my 'Thin' Tele-Elmarit. When I carried out some exceedingly tedious 'Near-focus / Back-focus' tests on some M-mount lenses - from 21mm to 135mm - these two Summarits were the least affected - and by quite a margin.

The 'Rubber Ring' was not liked by the true 'LeicaMan' (of course) but, in practice, I find it gives better purchase than the metal milled-ring usually to be found on long lenses (YMMV). Neither of these Summarit lenses - which are now 8 & 9 years old - has shown the slightest degradation in terms of the rubber used nor has either 'loosened-up' in any way with regards focussing nor aperture changes through usage; they are both as smooth and as precise as ever they were.

If I were to nit-pick I would have preferred heavier-gauge metal for the front lens cap and the screw-in hoods. But that's all. As lenses go they are superb in every way.

Philip.

EDIT : Sorry! Forgot to ask for dark-red Himalayan Yak Felt to be re-instated within the lens caps for 'snugness'.

Hello Philip,

It is good to know that the dark red felt is from Himalayan Yaks. Hungarian Yak Felt is medium brown. Do you know where & from what animal/plant the medium red Felt is from?

You are right about "snugness". All of the felt lined metal caps that I have seen come off easily & hold well.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 24, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[pippy]

5 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Philip,

It is good to know that the dark red felt is from Himalayan Yaks. Hungarian Yak Felt is medium brown. Do you know where & from what animal/plant the medium red Felt is from?...

Hello, Michael! Sorry but no; I don't. In fact in all honesty I've no proof of the origin of the red felt whatsoever but I know Yaks are indigenous to the Himalayas (among many other regions) so I suppose it might be true. I simply read it in a review of an early lens and the notion stuck in my mind.

I'm aware that Ken Rockwell frequently mentions the Hungarian felt-lined caps in his reviews of some of the Leitz lenses from the '50s and '60s and so it is quite possible that the idea was mentioned by Mr. Rockwell in one of his reviews of an earlier lens but, if so, I cannot remember which model it would have been.

Perhaps someone in the Historical section might be able to shed some light on the matter?

Philip.

[Herr Barnack]

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On 8/19/2021 at 6:17 PM, earleygallery said:

Yes, they're all plastic inside and use plastic lens elements. You'd get better photos sticking the lens from a Kodak Instamatic on the front of your Leica.

(happy to fuel the myth so that it drives prices down).

The facts of the matter are:  Summarits are made from recycled 2 liter Coke bottles and the lens elements are cemented together with Elmer's glue.  The focusing helicoids are lubricated with used axle grease scavenged from the city dump on the outskirts of Wetzlar. 

This has got to be 100% true - I read it on the internet.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Matlock]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

The facts of the matter are:  Summarits are made from recycled 2 liter Coke bottles and the lens elements are cemented together with Elmer's glue.  The focusing helicoids are lubricated with used axle grease scavenged from the city dump on the outskirts of Wetzlar. 

This has got to be 100% true - I read it on the internet.

The problem is that now you have posted this, about 95% of members of this forum will believe you.😄

[pop]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Matlock:

The problem is that now you have posted this, about 95% of members of this forum will believe you.

It's all right. By definition, anything posted in the internet becomes true, unless you believe in conspiracies. Then it's the reverse: everything is true until it's posted in the internet.

Edited August 24, 2021 by pop
wrong quantor

[Michael Geschlecht]

9 hours ago, pippy said:

Hello, Michael! Sorry but no; I don't. In fact in all honesty I've no proof of the origin of the red felt whatsoever but I know Yaks are indigenous to the Himalayas (among many other regions) so I suppose it might be true. I simply read it in a review of an early lens and the notion stuck in my mind.

I'm aware that Ken Rockwell frequently mentions the Hungarian felt-lined caps in his reviews of some of the Leitz lenses from the '50s and '60s and so it is quite possible that the idea was mentioned by Mr. Rockwell in one of his reviews of an earlier lens but, if so, I cannot remember which model it would have been.

Perhaps someone in the Historical section might be able to shed some light on the matter?

Philip.

Hello Philip,

The part about the "Hungarian Yaks" that I was referring to was told to me by someone at Leitz in the 1970's. I think that the "Hungarian Yaks" that they were referring to are a variety of horned cows with heads, horns & hair resembling Tibetan Yaks.

I am sorry that I do not have the technological capability to "pop" 1 of these "Hungarian Yaks" onto the screen here. I am sure that if you look for "Historical Cattle in Hungary" you will have no trouble finding them. You see them on occasion in old paintings of the countryside on the Hungarian Plains. In Hungarian that would be "Alfold". Sometimes also referred to as "Puszta".

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 24, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[Herr Barnack]

3 hours ago, pop said:

It's all right. By definition, anything posted in the internet becomes true, unless you believe in conspiracies. Then it's the reverse: everything is true until it's posted in the internet.

The Global Internet Ministry of Truth would never permit falsehoods to be disseminated on their watch.  Their direct action unit - the Tactical Untruth Removal Directorate (or TURD) is always monitoring the internet for odious and odoriferous nuggets of untruth that must be expunged.

[a.noctilux]

Returning to Summarit-M construction,

I have no complain after using 2.5/35, 50, 75 for some years now.

The rubber focus ring of the 2.5/75 had some whiting over time, brushing out in couple of minutes with old toothbrush can render the rubber black again.

 

[Kl@usW.]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb a.noctilux:

Returning to Summarit-M construction,

I have no complain after using 2.5/35, 50, 75 for some years now.

The rubber focus ring of the 2.5/75 had some whiting over time, brushing out in couple of minutes with old toothbrush can render the rubber black again.

 

Same here. Shooting film, the 35 rit is my most used lens-- the lux 35 fle gets only an outing if the additional 1 1/2 stops are really needed--which is hardly ever the case. And stopped down I can't tell  them apart anyway. The same with the Lux ash 50 and the S´rit 50. 

[Herr Barnack]

I have a copy of the 50mm f/2.4 Summarit.  I can see not one detail of its construction or fit & finish where is is not the equal of any of my other M lenses.

That may not have been the case with the original lineup of f/2.5 Summarit lenses, based on what I have heard. 

I would buy any of the f/2.4 Summarits without a second thought regarding construction or fit & finish.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Ko.Fe.]

On 8/19/2021 at 4:57 PM, Ralf11 said:

Is there anything to the claims that the Summarits have lower quality mechanical construction or "feel" worse in use?

 

 

 

I have Summarit-M 35 2.5 and it is best mechanical quality lens so far. For active shooting. But some who are slow, they might like stiff lenses.

I had CV CS 35 2.5 PII and it fail apart after less use. 

I think LCAG might have killed this line because more and more were realizing here is no point to overpay for Crons and Luxes. 

[Al Brown]

My only ever Leica M lens that was bought new and was decentered was a Summarit 75... But I guess I must have had bad luck.

[a.noctilux]

18 hours ago, Al Brown said:

My only ever Leica M lens that was bought new and was decentered was a Summarit 75... But I guess I must have had bad luck.

 

Al

Sorry to ask, how Leica/you handled the flawed 75mm ?

[pgk]

19 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

IThat may not have been the case with the original lineup of f/2.5 Summarit lenses, based on what I have heard. 

My 90/2.5 is absolutey fine. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with Summarits made from recycled 2 liter Coke bottles cemented together with Elmer's glue and lubricated with used axle grease scavenged from the city dump on the outskirts of Wetzlar IMO, although I would suect that Elmer's glue has a fishy base based on the smell .....

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

 

Al

Sorry to ask, how Leica/you handled the flawed 75mm ?

I had it for a while and then I sold it, the buyer (he was told about the flaw) did not mind the left third of the image wide open at infinity being slightly soft. It was a classic case of QC issue. Luckily I got it super cheap new (about 700 euros before tax) from a batch that was being sold off just after discontinuing them and was able to end up with 0 loss (or profit), but my conscience is clear on not cheating anoyone.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wda]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

I had it for a while and then I sold it, the buyer (he was told about the flaw) did not mind the left third of the image wide open at infinity being slightly soft. It was a classic case of QC issue. Luckily I got it super cheap new (about 700 euros before tax) from a batch that was being sold off just after discontinuing them and was able to end up with 0 loss (or profit), but my conscience is clear on not cheating anoyone.

You bought it new, presumably with a Leica warranty,  so why did you not report the fault to your dealer, or Leica direct? I am mystified if you just chose to live with the fault.