Vote on M11-D features

[Datsch]

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The Results Are In!

Thanks everyone for your inputs and insights; I hope they catch the attention of Leica product managers ...

To summarise thus far:

I present the raw data here with this encoding:

Yes=1, No=0, -=Neutral, 2=Keen, 5=Very Keen, 9=Fanatical

Review of images remaining after each shot  0-000-01100000000
Faux film advance lever    / thumbrest      011111-1151110902
On/off on shutter button                    11111111111111101
ISO dial on back                            121110111110-2101
Wifi/fotos                                  0-100100000110101
Thumbwheel and bump                         -0011101110111001
USB-C port                                  0-100100000001011
Frameline lever                             011000-1111110001
Continuous mode                             -1000000001001011
Self Timer mode                             11100010001001101
Black paint                                 1-1111111110121-1
Silver chrome                               -21110111110-01--
Black chrome                                --1110111110-00-1
Visoflex capable                            01100100011210091
GPS                                         0-0001000-0000011
M11-D-M monochrom version                   ---99111111-02900

 

Here are the standout trends, in approximate order of agreement: 

1. On/Off should be on the shutter button
2. No need for number of images remaining to be displayed after each shot
3. No GPS
4. People like the film advance lever
5. M11M-D is desired
6. ISO dial to go on the back

No surprises there, I think!

The others scored fairly neutrally overall.

I made a mistake with the colour/finish questions, so there's not much that can be read into them.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Datsch

[Datsch]

In terms of my own personal thoughts:

1. I've been doing a very quick half-press after each shot to clear the 'images remaining' display and so be ready for the next shot. It didn't bother me too much in aperture priority mode, as it was just more numbers, but I've been on a strict diet of manual mode the past two weeks (enjoying it!) and those images remaining do glare out at you amongst the quiet calm arrows ... Also, I do a momentary halfpress after switching on, while I am raising the camera up, so it's all ready to go once it reaches my eye.

    

2. Bluetooth would seem more suitable for adjusting settings via an app? Settings are literally only a few bytes, and bluetooth must be much less battery-hungry than wifi. That of course wouldn't allow transfer of hefty files like images, but those who want to look at images on a tiny screen (their phone) in a cafe might as well have a screened M instead...??

    

3. 2s not 12s please. I think self-timers are not really used for 12 second selfies anymore? Surely tripod users are the most frequent case for self timer, ie 2s rather than 12s to avoid shutter shake. But then that what release cables are for ...

 

Oh, and I woke up this morning with a thought -- the absolute certainty that the basic M11 would not have a screen ... but perhaps I was in a parallel universe ... having a screen now just seems like clutter to me, not at all 'True Essentials' ...

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Datsch

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[NigelG]

Sorry for missing the poll.

I just need off/on/on with bluetooth*  at shutter w no continuous or self timer. Frame remaining on startup only not wake.

Iso dial on back as M60/262-D or, if the M10 iso knob is retained,  maybe NOTHING ON THE BACK!

Silver chrome finish a must 🙂.

EVF a possibility but could we have lovely small chromed metal one...and if we had one the hump/thumbrest would be needed for exposure comp maybe - but then we're back to adding features which compromised the M10-D for me 🙄.

 

*Photos via bluetooth not wifi to give self timer/continuous/date setting etc

Edited August 26, 2021 by NigelG

[Datsch]

Sudden moment of clarity today -- the M10-D should have simply been an M10-P with a blank rear plate. Here's how:

1. You would have had exposure compensation on the thumbwheel, which as we all know works very well.
2. You have ISO as per the M10 -- it is a physical dial, that's all you need.
3. The firmware would have been essentially that of the M-D -- DNG only and time and date setting via thumbwheel
4. A simple blank rear plate which is relatively cheap to build and quick to assemble.

That would have been much, much cheaper to make and so more profitable than the actual M10-D and so would have encouraged an M11-D. The following drawbacks of the actual M10-D would have been avoided:

1. No need for expensive tooling for the thumb lever -- the normal M10 on off would have been just fine
2. No need for expensive tooling and interior cabling for the wifi button, on, off,  and exp comp dial on the back
3. No need for fotos software compatibility and expensive customisation
4. No continuance of the 'faux-film' concept which limits the target audience to old geezers
5. No useless essentially-non-functioning thumbwheel.

I really feel that the -D concept has to move beyond the 'it's sort of like a film camera / only change the ISO every 36 shots' jokey image.

The -D is forward looking, not backward. It is post-menu. It is about pure form, simplicity, and technology getting out of your way.

It also needs a marketing slant that is not about lack or loss -- for example 'screenless' is a great feature but does imply something is missing. Everyone calls them 'the camera without a screen' but it's not really about that. I don't even think about a screen when I am using it. Screens are for those archaic cameras everyone else has.

So we need something like the 'superleggera' more positive concept of lightness as per supercars. The 911R had no stereo, no aircon, just manual gearbox. In return you got more power to weight ratio, greater speed, crisper handling.

Likewise, what are we getting in return with the -D?

1. We get simplicity, focus, clarity.
2. We get lighter weight (very slightly less grammes) and more importantly lighter mental weight (no cluttering of thought with settings and chimping and so on).
3. We have room for our intention.

What else do we get from the -D? Brainstorm below ... 🤔

Maybe we can persuade Leica to give a simplified M11-D (ie M11 with plain backplate) some serious consideration ...

Edited September 15, 2021 by Datsch

[Steven]

4 hours ago, Datsch said:

Sudden moment of clarity today -- the M10-D should have simply been an M10-P with a blank rear plate. Here's how:

1. You would have had exposure compensation on the thumbwheel, which as we all know works very well.
2. You have ISO as per the M10 -- it is a physical dial, that's all you need.
3. The firmware would have been essentially that of the M-D -- DNG only and time and date setting via thumbwheel
4. A simple blank rear plate which is relatively cheap to build and quick to assemble.

That would have been much, much cheaper to make and so more profitable than the actual M10-D and so would have encouraged an M11-D. The following drawbacks of the actual M10-D would have been avoided:

1. No need for expensive tooling for the thumb lever -- the normal M10 on off would have been just fine
2. No need for expensive tooling and interior cabling for the wifi button, on, off,  and exp comp dial on the back
3. No need for fotos software compatibility and expensive customisation
4. No continuance of the 'faux-film' concept which limits the target audience to old geezers
5. No useless essentially-non-functioning thumbwheel.

I really feel that the -D concept has to move beyond the 'it's sort of like a film camera / only change the ISO every 36 shots' jokey image.

The -D is forward looking, not backward. It is post-menu. It is about pure form, simplicity, and technology getting out of your way.

It also needs a marketing slant that is not about lack or loss -- for example 'screenless' is a great feature but does imply something is missing. Everyone calls them 'the camera without a screen' but it's not really about that. I don't even think about a screen when I am using it. Screens are for those archaic cameras everyone else has.

So we need something like the 'superleggera' more positive concept of lightness as per supercars. The 911R had no stereo, no aircon, just manual gearbox. In return you got more power to weight ratio, greater speed, crisper handling.

Likewise, what are we getting in return with the -D?

1. We get simplicity, focus, clarity.
2. We get lighter weight (very slightly less grammes) and more importantly lighter mental weight (no cluttering of thought with settings and chimping and so on).
3. We have room for our intention.

What else do we get from the -D? Brainstorm below ... 🤔

Maybe we can persuade Leica to give a simplified M11-D (ie M11 with plain backplate) some serious consideration ...

I personally would not have bought that M10D. And i would not upgrade to the M11D if it resembled what you describe. 

I would prefer the ISO dial to be in the back and I am very attached to the thumb rest. 

 

[poli]

10 hours ago, Steven said:

I personally would not have bought that M10D. And i would not upgrade to the M11D if it resembled what you describe. 

I would prefer the ISO dial to be in the back and I am very attached to the thumb rest. 

 

Me too. I think it is tempting to overthink. 
The other day I came to the conclusion I wanted  an m11-d without light meter. Hahah. In my state of mind it made sense, but  perhaps not the best idea to keep sales up. 

[evikne]

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My dream camera is very simple. Just give me an analog M with a digital sensor. 

[pgk]

1 minute ago, evikne said:

My dream camera is very simple. Just give me an analog M with a digital sensor. 

And if Leica want the M series to survive in any other way than an extremely expensive niche camera they should make exactly this and significantly reduce the price relative to the M10! Otherwise I fear that M cameras will fade into a much greater obscurity than at present.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, pgk said:

And if Leica want the M series to survive in any other way than an extremely expensive niche camera they should make exactly this and significantly reduce the price relative to the M10! Otherwise I fear that M cameras will fade into a much greater obscurity than at present.

I totally agree. Leica's present appeal is to those with deep pockets. A Leica has become somewhat more of a status symbol, bling, rather than a tool and this is something that Leica seemingly encourages with it's "special editions" that are meaningless other than for their exclusivity and appearances. There's very little examples I see of images taken with the latest cameras that in my mind can justify such expenditures, most could have been shot on much much cheaper gear, even an iPhone for God's sake.I suspect many current digital M owners now are financially exhausted trying to keep up with trading up to the newest version of the cameras and will probably stick where they are on the ownership ladder. Good enough becomes good enough when trading up is too expensive a consideration.

[WvE]

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm surprised that a faster wake-up time isn't high on the M11 wish list.

[pgk]

51 minutes ago, petermullett said:

There's very little examples I see of images taken with the latest cameras that in my mind can justify such expenditures, most could have been shot on much much cheaper gear, even an iPhone for God's sake.I suspect many current digital M owners now are financially exhausted trying to keep up with trading up to the newest version of the cameras and will probably stick where they are on the ownership ladder. Good enough becomes good enough when trading up is too expensive a consideration.

I have been shooting with my Sony A7II recently using their 20/1.8 and 35/1.8 lenses and 90/2.8 macro. So basically duplicating my M lens 'favourites'. I'm disconcerted at how good these lenses are and at much lower costs than the Leica equivalents. I will keep using both but at £7.5k for a current body I'm out of buying one - this is simply is no longer viable as a photographic tool because all it would do is provide me with a replacement M body, and as a low ISO shooter I neither need nor want to upgrade at such a cost. If Leica don't address this escalating M cost there will be many more like myself I suspect to whom the M, whilst the camera of choice, is no longer an effective solution new.

[IkarusJohn]

I may buy another digital M, but only when my M10-D dies and is no longer repairable.

Edited September 16, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[ianman]

3 hours ago, petermullett said:

I suspect many current digital M owners now are financially exhausted trying to keep up with trading up to the newest version of the cameras and will probably stick where they are on the ownership ladder.

Reading posts here I often wonder why some members keep on using the M. It most obviously doesn't meet their needs wants,  but ask why they keep using the M if it's so far behind other brands or suggesting the M might not be for them and the usual reply is a tirade of insults. The result is an endless stream of want want want, in effect destroying what really makes the M system unique.

As you rightly wrote, more than ever it has become a status symbol.

Edited September 16, 2021 by ianman

[WvE]

3 hours ago, ianman said:

Reading posts here I often wonder why some members keep on using the M. It most obviously doesn't meet their needs wants,  but ask why they keep using the M if it's so far behind other brands or suggesting the M might not be for them and the usual reply is a tirade of insults. The result is an endless stream of want want want, in effect destroying what really makes the M system unique.

As you rightly wrote, more than ever it has become a status symbol.

The current M prices are undoubtedly the sweet spot for Leica, revenue wise.

Expensive makes desirable...        

[poli]

6 hours ago, WvE said:

Unless I'm mistaken, I'm surprised that a faster wake-up time isn't high on the M11 wish list.

I thought  it was. But if not, it should. I never understood why the m10-d has a slower wake up time compared to the m-d. too many bells and whistles I guess…

[pgk]

16 hours ago, WvE said:

The current M prices are undoubtedly the sweet spot for Leica, revenue wise.

Expensive makes desirable...        

If that is, you want to remain a small player in the market with just a fringe following (albeit well-heeled). The top end of the 'photographic' market is shrinking. Competition is fierce. Relying on low volume, high cost even if profitable, sales may be a way of staying in the market but is inherently limiting. If Leica wants to expand its real market share (not by maintaing its existing small volume sales in a shrinking market) it needs to compete on something other than specification and desirability. Supplying genuine photographic tools at a competitive price coud work, but ever increasing prices is a very dodgy long term strategy if you ask me.

[mike3996]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

if you ask me.

Everyone is an MBA when it comes to giving opinions about Leica's strategy.

[pgk]

33 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Everyone is an MBA when it comes to giving opinions about Leica's strategy.

But we are all customers. I will not be buying another new M body simply because they are becoming too costly and when I look around the marketplace I see alternatives which can deliver as acceptable results at a fraction of the price. I am also aware of others who feel the same. Ultimately we determine Leica's success.

Edited September 17, 2021 by pgk

[Kim Dahl]

On 9/16/2021 at 9:57 AM, evikne said:

My dream camera is very simple. Just give me an analog M with a digital sensor. 

+ 1 The Leica MD is the one closest to you.  Fantastic camera ❤️ Have one

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pippy]

On 9/16/2021 at 8:57 AM, evikne said:

My dream camera is very simple. Just give me an analog M with a digital sensor. 

As Kim Dahl said above that's exactly what the M-D Typ-262 is. Effectively it is an M6 TTL which shoots DNG frames instead of Film.

You really should try one out for yourself if you can find one; it will be a revelation.

Philip.