Forget the M11-D, we want the M-A-D!

[pippy]

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27 minutes ago, Datsch said:

Maybe an M60 is in your future? (No bump) But I would miss strap lugs ...

 

Funny you should say that. I almost did buy one a year or so ago. Came with original lens. No casket (or whatever) but the price reflected that. It was primarily the lack of strap-lugs which was the deal-breaker and I'm not kidding. I'm sure NigelG will have a workaround but for me? Nope. Sadly.

Philip.

Edited August 3, 2021 by pippy

[pippy]

3 minutes ago, NigelG said:

...M10-D fold-out thumb rest, Visoflex compatible (inc playback) + silver chrome finish. Oh and the old "sharkskin/emeryboard" covering rather than textured leather...

 

I see we were both typing / posting at the same time, Nigel! Taking the points you raise in order;

I did try the M10-D 'wind-on-lever' and rather liked it. I know it's a pastiche but, as pastiches go, it's a good one. Only issue - for me - is unusually (it would seem) I always carry / grip my camera in my left hand and my right-hand only comes up to finish the steadying process and to trip the shutter. This is why all those Thumbies / Thumb's Up accessories are, for me, useless. So even as a Good Pastiche the faux-lever is of no interest to me.

Visoflex is of no interest either. Never will be. Sorry!

In terms of Finish and Coverings? I did, as it happens, mention (in another thread) my preference for any new M to be offered in Black Paint and Silver-Chrome finish with 'classically styled' top-plate engravings from the start of production and also for Shark-Skin to be brought back as an option. I have a 'Shark' IIIc and the texture of the covering is sublime.

How do you cope without the lugs?

Philip.

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[NigelG]

I body in the original case (with the short strap) and one loose in an Oberwerth George (you can fit both cameras in it flat ontop of each other if needs be as long as you have say 28 cron/50 Lux like me usually) and there's still room for a 21 SEM/ 90 MEM in this "tiny" bag.

or 1 on a longer Gordy wrist strap from the tripod screw and one in a bag (I usually actually use Longchamp bags with loose bits of Billingham padding or inserts)

or just one just held in the hand "naked" and an M240-P/M9M etc on the regular thin strap...

[NigelG]

I was trying to imaging a model that sat between the "Spartan" edition MD-262/M60 and the "tried-to-please-more-people-but-kind-of-lost-its-way" (IMHO) M10-D.

I personally don't think that relying on a 3rd party device to control functions on a camera is very smart - and I'm sure it will lead to increasing effort/expense/R+D etc on Leica's part to continually update connectivity/apps/etc etc as the iOS/Android software develops.

[IkarusJohn]

18 minutes ago, NigelG said:

I was trying to imaging a model that sat between the "Spartan" edition MD-262/M60 and the "tried-to-please-more-people-but-kind-of-lost-its-way" (IMHO) M10-D.

I personally don't think that relying on a 3rd party device to control functions on a camera is very smart - and I'm sure it will lead to increasing effort/expense/R+D etc on Leica's part to continually update connectivity/apps/etc etc as the iOS/Android software develops.

Interesting thought.

Leica seems disinterested in improving its Fotos App, any more than it has.  So, we're stuck with the current version, and we have to keep at least one existing phone frozen without updates if we wish to maintain what connectivity there is?  Counter to that, the Hasselblad X1D, the Insta 360, GoPro and countless other devices also use the iOS platform.  It seems to have become something of a standard.

I would add that my M10-D isn't reliant on either the Fotos App or my phone.  If the WiFi died tomorrow, or the Fotos App was no longer compatible with iOS, I'm not sure it would matter to me.  I use the aperture and focus rings on the lens, the shutter and ISO dials on the topdeck, and exposure compensation on the back.  I don't "need" anything on the phone or Fotos App to do what I want to do.

I guess I might be annoyed that there was an setting on the on-off switch for WiFi that was no longer any use, but do you really think that no one would come up with a solution?  I have four cameras with WiFi links to my phone, and have had a number of others.  I don't need or rely on any of them connecting to my phone, but they're nice to have and I doubt that functionality will be abandoned by every camera maker ...

Edited August 3, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[NigelG]

Mea Culpa

My understanding (not having migrated to the M10-D) was that there were various camera settings that were accessed via FOTOS alone. I was imagining that if your version of FOTOS no longer worked you would be "stuck" with those settings.....

[IkarusJohn]

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1 hour ago, NigelG said:

Mea Culpa

My understanding (not having migrated to the M10-D) was that there were various camera settings that were accessed via FOTOS alone. I was imagining that if your version of FOTOS no longer worked you would be "stuck" with those settings.....

Not at all. This comment appears from time to time, but it isn’t true.

If you start with what is absolutely necessary, it’s on the camera - aperture, focus, shutter speed, ISO and exposure compensation. They are all direct settings on the camera. White balance?  Not really concerned. Exposure metering? Only when you use the EVF, and then a combination of physical buttons will achieve what you might “need”.  The M10-D is my only colour digital M, and I am not “reliant” on the App for anything. 

While I enjoy what the EVF and App have to offer, I can easily live without either (I have an optical external viewfinder for my 21mm).  I would prefer not to have the thumbwheel, the fn button on the topdeck, the frame preview lever and the front button - but they do serve purposes, if I can remember. I wouldn’t miss them. 

So, as a user, your comment “tried-to-please-more-people-but-kind-of-lost-its-way” is not something I agree with.

Edited August 4, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[NigelG]

Understood - I think I was remembering lots of threads on its release bemoaning issues with wifi connectivity/ GPS logging/non-functioning promised features which implied that it was not, infact, concerned with the paradigm of  "Das Wesentliche"...

[Datsch]

The nub of what I was thinking when I started this thread was that if we a lucky there will be an M11-D.

What that has to be in practical terms is essentially an M11, with the screen and D pad removed.

That means it would likely be stuck with whatever iso dial the M11 uses. Not the backplate one we all love.

It would also be likely to have even more fotos-type functionality etc and hence be an 'M10-D-Plus' whereas I would be more interested in an 'M-D-Minus'.

Hence wanting to start from scratch with a one-button camera that was still fully functional. Tall order, I know.

In fact, I think the concept is so strong it is worthy of its own platform, to become the Leica flagship, perhaps the M1 or the branding people would insist on it being the 'M One'

One vision. One button. The One.

😉

Anyway, I thought @NigelG 's characterisation on the M10-D losing-its-way was funny and a little harsh but for me was spot on.

We have all seen the threads on the M10-D and we can agree there is a polarity of views. Perhaps we need two strands of development here? One being Minimal but allowing wifi, QR codes, faux-film nostalgia, automation of ISO, exposure etc. The other being all-manual, knit-your-own-yoghurt, built-from-girders, wabi-sabi kind of thing.

 

 

 

 

[pippy]

9 hours ago, NigelG said:

...1 on a longer Gordy wrist strap from the tripod screw and one in a bag...

Yes; the tripod screw. I have a non-lugged 1930 Leica I and have used that both in a case and also, as you mention, with a strap from the tripod screw and, although both work well in most ways, have on occasion been dissatisfied by both methods for very different reasons.

With the strap-adapter / split ring in the screw-hole the camera cannot be laid down flat on the base-plate (for obvious reasons) and when used in the case I've occasionally discovered - mainly when using a wide-angle lens - that I have been less-than-careful in ensuring the rear clasp fastening on the case's top section isn't in the frame - it can't be seen in the viewfinder.

I've bought a couple of spare less-than-mint Barnack cases with a view to chopping-off the whole of the top section of one and just using the 'cradle' and strap.......but perhaps I should really improve my shooting-technique instead!

Philip.

Edited August 4, 2021 by pippy

[T25UFO]

What an interesting thread.  It shows what a little lateral thinking can produce so thank you @Datsch for starting this process.

Product evolution often means adding things so it's refreshing to see so many ideas for subtracting things.  It sort of reminds me of Apple Computer.  You may love 'em or hate 'em but you can't dispute they have driven change, both in functionality and design.  And this change was often typified by the removal of things that many people said you simply couldn't do without.  

Things like floppy disk drives.  How will we load programs without a floppy disk?  Seems rather funny now when you look back on it.  Same with CD or DVD drives, and Apple went for USB C when there were virtually no USB C peripherals.  How stupid was that?

Photography has changed so much in recent years but our little black box recording device (the camera) still has the same basic buttons etc.  Maybe Leica will listen to @Datsch.  I hope so.

Edited August 4, 2021 by T25UFO

[analog-digital]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb pippy:

Forget the M11-D, we want the M-A-D!

We? I think only you!

[pippy]

24 minutes ago, analog-digital said:

We? I think only you!

You should be more careful who you quote; this is not my thread nor did I write the title.

Philip.

Edited August 4, 2021 by pippy

[poli]

I'd like two M11-Ds. A colour one and a monochrome one. With upgraded sensors and such. 

Please mix the best from the M-D 262 (startup time, iso dial, battery life) with the best of the M10-D (VF, lever, slimmer body) and leave some things out: silly exposure wheel on back (never used it on M-D, no idea what its for on M10-D). WIFI..mehh... could live without it. 

No Exposure meter - that I have read above -  sounds interesting& challenging... would that safe battery life?

[Gid]

It does seem to me that much of the suggested changes would result, effectively, in a point and shoot with little opportunity for user input.I don't want a camera that makes all of the decisions for me - I have a phone for that. I have an M262 and think it offers just about the optimum in the development of the digital M save for the MD262 that I believe I could be very happy with. I would not want to lose the ability to adjust ISO but could happily live with auto WB. I like to be able to make all of the decisions even if that is to leave it to the camera sometimes. I do not want or need any more electronic wizardry. Yes I am a modern Luddite 😉

[Datsch]

8 hours ago, analog-digital said:

We? I think only you!

Yes, those words (Forget the M11-D, we want the M-A-D!) were mine and you may be right -- I led the charge without looking back over my shoulder to check the troops were all ready to come along for the ride ... 😄

 

[Datsch]

6 hours ago, poli said:

I'd like two M11-Ds. A colour one and a monochrome one. With upgraded sensors and such. 

Please mix the best from the M-D 262 (startup time, iso dial, battery life) with the best of the M10-D (VF, lever, slimmer body) and leave some things out: silly exposure wheel on back (never used it on M-D, no idea what its for on M10-D). WIFI..mehh... could live without it. 

No Exposure meter - that I have read above -  sounds interesting& challenging... would that safe battery life?

That is the most pragmatic thing we've heard here, thank you. I recall @Mattias Burling said of the M-D that is was the best of all the recent M's put together -- black paint, brass top and bottom, quiet shutter, M262 simplicity, etc etc, so to combine the best of the M-D and the M10-D is a good way to go.

[Datsch]

23 minutes ago, Gid said:

It does seem to me that much of the suggested changes would result, effectively, in a point and shoot

I know what you mean. In trying some of the more radical minimal-isations like removing the shutter wheel and iso dial we are forced to consider having the camera automate some of that. And while less dials is good, we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater!

The reason I came to Leica and the M-D was because I felt with other cameras I was continually having to override the automatic features -- small white flowers in a field of dark green: I know they will wash out with auto exposure so crank the exp comp dial minus 2 or 3; autofocus lands on the wrong thing, so I must focus and recompose; auto iso whizzing up and down something more to keep an eye on especially when 400 is the practical max on my olrder (non-leica) cameras. And so on and so on.

I remember from Car magazine a story about Martin Brundle the former F1 driver taking an Audi with some advanced automatic gearbox round a race track -- he said something like, "I spent the whole lap wondering what gear the car was in".

I've been enjoying a car with 5 speed manual gearbox lately -- yes it's a little tiresome in stop-start traffic but press on down a country lane and it's so engaging ...

So my pendulum is swinging in this debate to a bit more control, almost all manual, which really keeps coming back to the existing M-D 😆

[pippy]

35 minutes ago, Datsch said:

...my pendulum is swinging in this debate to a bit more control, almost all manual, which really keeps coming back to the existing M-D 😆...

Yup.

Philip.

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[Datsch]

On 8/3/2021 at 6:57 PM, JonPB said:

- Around the shutter, in the front, is the exposure toggle. Push left a bit to increase speed by a half stop, more for a full stop, or all the way for two stops. Pull for the opposite. This makes it easy to slam the toggle in response to a rapid change in light without spinning the shutter dial halfway around; it retains the directional muscle memory of M shooters; and it moves this key adjustment closer to the shutter release.

I am still processing @JonPB 's outstanding comment and hope to respond in more detail when I have time.

I love the no framelines idea because it is completely crazy but also sets a good definition for feature removal -- not removing features for the sake of pure minimalism, but also because there are benefits, in this case a brighter viewfinder. I would say that for me personally, no framelines would be a net benefit ... (I often square crop so am used to visualising framelines anyway).

My question to Jon is: With your toggle system, (which I love the sound of) what is the default shutter speed upon switching on the camera? Something in the middle like 1/250th? Then you go left or right from there? And would the speed be reset each time the camera is turned off? And how will you answer the people who like to see the speed setting before the camera is turned on or without having their eye to the finder?