Buying a long lens for occasional use on my Leica M10

[Herr Barnack]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

@MikeMyers   IMHO the best set up for photographing wildlife with the M10 would be to use the Visoflex #18767, a 300mm f/4 Nikkor and the Novoflex Nikon to Leica M lens adapter:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/869958-REG/Novoflex_LEM_NIK_NT_Lens_Adapter_for_Nikon.html

That setup would pretty much be the solution for the challenges you are currently facing.

[MikeMyers]

Herr Barnack, based on what I learned on this forum, I already purchased one of these.  Part of my thought process is if I waited too long, it might no longer be available.  My main reason for buying it was close-up photography.  I've had it on and off the camera, but have yet to actually use it for photography.  The way I see it, if I go on a trip somewhere, I can bring this adapter and some of my old Nikon lenses, along with my M10.  I've got many years worth of Nikon lenses sitting around.

The question I haven't found an answer for though, is why I would go to all that trouble when I could just bring a Nikon body with me.

The best (realistic) answer I can come up with, is I prefer the images created by my M10 and Leica lenses to the results I get from my Nikon.   Then too, I agree with what you posted under your reply:  "In a world dominated by soulless, mass-produced and disposable goods, objects that are made by artisanal hands retain a soul and warmth that connects us with our humanity, past and present."  ....and also "To remain invisible, while being in the midst of the action, that is the secret."

I've been buying and using camera gear since the 1960's.  My Nikon SP, and all my Leica M cameras are "special", and I feel some kind of attachment to them that I never get with my Nikon stuff.  I've got Nikon F, F2, F4, and finally my D750, all of which just felt like "tools".  The Df goes beyond that - and it will probably never be repeated by Nikon.  By comparison, all the Leica cameras I still own are "special", in ways I find difficult to describe.  Maybe I blend into the cameras, or maybe it's the other way 'round.  

....I should add that until recently, I used my Leica camera "my way", which included focusing before capturing an image.  For the past ten days I tried what I learned here, pre-focusing, which left me 100% free to concentrate on the image.  The end result was I actually DID capture the image I wanted, rather than missing it because I was wasting time trying to focus.  I'm sure I'll get yelled at for saying so, but I put the camera back to "automatic white balance", and sometimes auto-ISO, and I found setting the shutter speed dial to (A) saved me even more time.  Since my eyeglasses prevent me from seeing the entire field of the viewfinder with a 35mm lens, I concentrated on capturing what I wanted within my image, rather than framing the image perfectly - other than static shots, where I could take all the time I wanted to set things perfectly.  

 

.....I can't resist - what is a "Leica Chicken"?  

[105012]

8 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

The Elmar is a simple long focus lens, meaning it is 135mm from the lens to the film/sensor.  The more modern lenses are true telephoto lenses, with a shorter distance to get a similar result.

Hello Mike, just to be clear: I was referring to focus throw, not the physical length of the lens.

[MikeMyers]

Yes, I think we're saying the same thing essentially.

Focal length is "The focal length of the lens is the distance between the lens and the image sensor when the subject is in focus, usually stated in millimeters (e.g., 28 mm, 50 mm, or 100 mm).

The length of the lens is different.

From what I read, for a lens to be a true "telephoto", the same effect is achieved by shortening the distance from lens to sensor.  

I believe the Hectar and Elmar are simply "long focal length lenses", and Leica's newest long focal length lenses use a geometry that allows them to physically shorten the lens.  I've long since forgotten how they accomplish that.  

 

 

[Narsuitus]

If I need to shoot long focal length lenses on my Leica M10, I have the option of using a Nikon F to Leica M adapter to mount 105, 135, 180, 400, 500, or 1000mm Nikon telephoto lenses on my M10 and using the LiveView LCD for focusing.

 

[MikeMyers]

I haven't found the technical answer yet, but here's how Ken Rockwell describes the length of these Leica lenses:

(copied from  https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/135mm-f45.htm )

"Optics

4 elements in 3 groups. 

This is a conventional long lens design, not a telephoto. Its diaphragm sits right at 135mm from the image plane. 

The Nikkor lens shown above is a telephoto design, and is much shorter."

 

The illustration shows the Leica Hectar next to a Nikon telephoto - both are 135mm, but the Nikon lens is almost half the length of the Hectar.

I'm not sure if it matters, other than for how much space the lens takes in our camera bags.

[105012]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Yes, I think we're saying the same thing essentially.

Focal length is "The focal length of the lens is the distance between the lens and the image sensor when the subject is in focus, usually stated in millimeters (e.g., 28 mm, 50 mm, or 100 mm).

The length of the lens is different.

From what I read, for a lens to be a true "telephoto", the same effect is achieved by shortening the distance from lens to sensor.  

I believe the Hectar and Elmar are simply "long focal length lenses", and Leica's newest long focal length lenses use a geometry that allows them to physically shorten the lens.  I've long since forgotten how they accomplish that.  

 

 

Sorry Mike, I am talking about the number of degrees of rotation of the focus collar on the lens to go from infinity to closest focal distance. Not the focal length or the physical length of the lens.

The Elmar has more degrees of rotation required than modern 135mm lenses, with the upside of greater precision, and the possible downside of slower focussing (but that is not clear).

[MikeMyers]

3 minutes ago, 105012 said:

Sorry Mike, I am talking about the number of degrees of rotation of the focus collar on the lens to go from infinity to closest focal distance. Not the focal length or the physical length of the lens.

The Elmar has more degrees of rotation required than modern 135mm lenses, with the upside of greater precision, and the possible downside of slower focussing (but that is not clear).

Aha!  Understood.  So, to change the focus of the lens from infinity to ten feet, the focus collar needs to be turned more on the Elmar.  Sounds inconvenient for sports photography, but better accuracy for "static" photos - or as you put it, greater precision.  To me, for my purposes, that sounds like a benefit, but if I was trying to follow-focus a bird, it might be more difficult.

My old 50 Summicron has a round cylinder I turn, which feels "natural".  My 35 Summilux has a big blocky thing I need to move.  I prefer the "cylinder".  I know the M10 has some focusing aids for use with the Visoflex or the back screen, but I haven't had a chance to use them yet.  Maybe they'll be helpful with the Elmar.

[klausi]

On 7/29/2021 at 3:51 PM, Herr Barnack said:

@MikeMyers   IMHO the best set up for photographing wildlife with the M10 would be to use the Visoflex #18767, a 300mm f/4 Nikkor and the Novoflex Nikon to Leica M lens adapter:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/869958-REG/Novoflex_LEM_NIK_NT_Lens_Adapter_for_Nikon.html

That setup would pretty much be the solution for the challenges you are currently facing.

Can you control aperture on the lens?

[Herr Barnack]

37 minutes ago, klausi said:

Can you control aperture on the lens?

 @klausi  You would have to get an older 300mm f/4 that has a manual aperture ring.

I was floored when Nikon did away with the aperture ring on its lenses.  MONUMENTAL mistake on their part.  Their current generation lenses are useless on vintage film Nikons.

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Herr Barnack]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:42 AM, MikeMyers said:

.....I can't resist - what is a "Leica Chicken"?  

@MikeMyers A while back, @jonoslack posted a very nice series of images of his chickens, made with the new 35mm APO Summicron M.  It was decided that the chicken would be the official Leica mascot.  I then volunteered to take on the alter ego of the Official Leica Chicken (see post #115 and #201):

I am still waiting to hear back from Dr. Kaufmann about when my Official Leica Chicken suit will be ready and which Leica functions and events he would like me to attend, dressed as the Official Leica Chicken.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[MikeMyers]

35 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

@MikeMyers A while back, @jonoslack posted a very nice series of images of his chickens, made with the new 35mm APO Summicron M.  It was decided that the chicken would be the official Leica mascot.  I then volunteered to take on the alter ego of the Official Leica Chicken (see post #115 and #201):

I am still waiting to hear back from Dr. Kaufmann about when my Official Leica Chicken suit will be ready and which Leica functions and events he would like me to attend, dressed as the Official Leica Chicken.

By now you must have had your camera re-finished in red like this?  I found it here:  https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-Special-Editions

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Herr Barnack]

Personally, I have an affinity for all black M cameras and lenses.  If the rooster red M and lens is required, I would certainly be willing to use a loaner provided by Leica at for my duties as OLC...

[MikeMyers]

I did look at the chicken photos you referred to, which reminded me of when I used to lie down on the ground to get low-angle photos.  That got old very fast.  So I bought right-angle adapters for my Nikons, and now I've got the Visoflex.  To do it properly, I still need to get down on the ground though.  Those photos you pointed to looked quite good, making me wonder if you've taken any similar photos of chickens, or whatever, shot from a "chicken eye" viewpoint.  

As to camera color, all the cameras I buy are always in black.  Anything else seems to be like a neon sign, saying "look at me", which doesn't really let me "blend in" so nobody notices me, but as an Official Leica Chicken, don't you really need to be noticed?  Maybe you can just get a red cap, with your logo.

[MikeMyers]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:11 AM, Michael Geschlecht said:

......I use a 135mm f4 Tele-Elmar, which is pretty much the same lens that you are getting. The major differences are: Yours is lighter with almost double the focusing throw (Which I would prefer to have.). You also have a tripod mount on the lens itself. Which is very nice. Especially with a large ball head. Regardless of the size of the tripod, large or tabletop.

The Tele-Elmar is about 1 inch/25mm shorter, with 1/2 or so of the focusing throw (Which is faster.). It is heavier.

Both have separable lens units that attach to pretty much the same equipment & both use pretty much of the same filters, hoods, etc.I use the lens for a lot of photography with the camera's range/viewfinder system...

Thanks, Michael.  I was in for a rather pleasant surprise - the lens they sent me is the same lens you use, in what looks to me like "new" condition, with lens cap and box.  As you said, it's heavier (good!), but no tripod screw, and it "feels" like a perfect lens to me.  I was surprised, when I went to twist off the lens cap, the entire front of the lens started "unscrewing" from the housing - is this so it can be removed, and somehow attached to the old Visoflex?  I haven't removed it completely, as I'm not sure yet if this is "normal".   The lens hood you suggested also arrived today - as far as I can tell, it's never been used.

I don't get it - Leica lenses are mega-thousands of dollars, and $650 sounds inexpensive for what I bought.  

I explained all this to my brother, and he just said "I assume you bought the best".  Technically he is right, but all I was expecting was the lens I posted a photo of earlier.

Hopefully I end up enjoying it as much as I think you do.  Again, thank you!!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Mike,

Congratulations. Nice lens. 11851.

This is the same 1 that I use. From the looks of yours it might be from the 1970's. You can date it by checking the serial number by looking up the lens in the "WIKI" at the top of this page.

Leitz made the same optical unit from 1965 until the 1990's with 2 major body differences on the outside that had a number of small detail changes both on the outside & on the inside, over time. With yours you can see that the aperture selection ring goes a little bit beyond f4. This is common with many Leitz/Leica lenses. The "f4" "click" is where f4 is.

Technically it is better "by the numbers" from f5.6 thru f11 or so. But in reality, handheld: It is pretty much the same at all apertures & aperture selection is primarily for changes in depth of field. When I use it at regular distances handheld I generally set the aperture at f5.6 & then set the appropriate shutter speed. If the shutter speed is below 1/250 (My preferred minimum hand held speed for this lens.) then I use f4 & adjust the shutter speed accordingly.

Because, as with many lenses: Whatever is better in image improvement in image quality that there might be at a smaller aperture, it is rarely attained in comparison with the image quality loss from "lens shake" at a lower shutter speed. Keeping in mind that we all have handheld photos taken at 1 second that are perfectly nice. Altho not necessarily with a 135mm lens.

Closeup, like many macro lenses from many manufacturers, it is at its best at around f11. Altho, like when it is used at longer distances, it is a good lens at all apertures & adjustments of aperture might be done to effect depth of field. 

You might have noted that there is a second aperture scale on the other side of the optical section. This is to facilitate aperture selection if a person is using a different focusing mount for the lens unit that rotates the lens head while extending it.

The lens head unscrews. Some, not all, lens heads come with a small removable "lens hood" at the back of the lens unit which has to be removed to connect the lens head to a supplementary focusing unit.

Which, by the way, is a Visoflex II, IIa or III. A Visoflex I & earlier close up units are for the 135 f4 Elmar & some other lenses.

There is more. But this is enough for a start.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited August 2, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[MikeMyers]

Thanks for all the information.  I hope to try it out today or tomorrow.  If I would have known long ago what I know now (much of it thanks to you), I'd have bought this lens years ago, but back then I'd probably be using one of my Zoom Nikon lenses.  When I started searching, I was thinking of the old Hector lens, but the more I read, the less interested I was in buying one.  I think 99% of those old lenses for sale are available through ebay, which I prefer to avoid.  I'll post one image here.  I'm curious how it will compare to my Nikon long-lens-photos.

[Printmaker]

135 Tele Elmar on a M10. Hard to hit perfect focus wide open when you are close enough to be breakfast.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, Printmaker said:

135 Tele Elmar on a M10. Hard to hit perfect focus wide open when you are close enough to be breakfast......

Were you using the rangefinder or Visoflex?  Were you exposed, or some place "safe"?  If that lion was considering you as a treat for breakfast, you did a wonderful job of holding the camera still.  

The only place I might be able to get a similar photo is at the Miami Zoo.......     

Very nice!!!!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Printmaker]

Thanks. This was shot just a few minutes after sunrise from my car at Kruger NP in South Africa. My Visoflex connection was giving me fits so this was shot without the Visoflex. I had a 180 R lens and a 2x extender with me as well but the same connection issue forced me to bag that lens. So everything was old school rangefinder and 95% shot with the 135 Tele Elmar. 

This lion was out walking with his two wives and passed by close enough to pet. My wife had a similar experience with a leopard. He was on her side of the car so it was her shot. It took some convincing to get her to roll down the window.  FWIW: she was using an Olympus with a 40-150. And we both went on a sunrise hike with three armed park rangers where we came across an old tusker named Giovanni. I had to back up a bit to get all of him in the frame. When it was all said and done, the 135 Tele Elmar was up to the challenge.

You can see the rest here:  https://tomniblick.photoshelter.com/portfolio/G00009EbeW3q7djQ 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Printmaker
Added a thanks!