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Dilemma: Q2 and/or Q2 Monochrom?


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I have both the Q2 and the Q2M.  @leicameech is right, they make a great combination.  I recently visited Corfe Castle (SW England) and you get the best view climbing a steep (and I mean really steep) hill on the opposite side of the road.  On this occasion I didn't take the Q2 for colour, but rather the SL2 and a couple of lenses, so the bag was heavy.  For black and white I had my Q2M.   Here are two photos taken from the same position: SL2 with 75mm APO Summicron for colour and Q2M cropp

I pre-visualized this a few hours ago...Ansel Adams didn't help me at all: but a Q2M did.     Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!

I am coming around to the more natural skies as well, allowing myself the freedom of that interpretation. Not every b&w sky has to look like it was taken on the moon  Last week I took only the M10M with me on a business trip to Taos, and I enjoyed using it for vacation-style photos, just snapping away at anything I found interesting. I'm still relearning how to think in b&w, in particular learning how the M10M interprets color into b&w and adjusting my thinking to match. My inst

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2 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

What you are doing is arguing just for the sake of arguing.  And it is getting to be tiresome.

Done.

 

As a reminder this is why: 

“Both the M10 Monochrom and the Q2 Monochrom have one attribute that no other digital cameras have:  They cause the image maker tothink in black and white.

A patently untrue statement.

Bye.

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3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Ansel thought the term pre-visualization redundant, using visualization to mean seeing  with his ‘mind’s eye’.  If he had driven by Hernandez, New Mexico with a Q2 M, he would have hardly had the camera to his eye to visualize the Moonrise scene from his car.  He saw it already with his eyes and stopped the car. 
 

The EVF setting may indeed be useful for some for b/w.  But that’s not what MY comments were about.  I was merely stating why I find a monochrome based camera beneficial, which is to force ME into thinking and seeing about b/w tones (visualizing) while looking at the color world. For me, this comes about by the discipline of knowing that my camera can only take b/w pics (technically not totally true, but that’s another discussion). 
 

Jeff

Yes, and I think we can separate the ability to visualize a scene and know it will make a good b&w photo from how the EVF/LCD can help confirm our visualization once we have it up to our eye. Certainly I won't be wearing b&w glasses as I drive through New Mexico – we already have enough trouble here with everyone running red lights :)

The skill of thinking in b&w is paramount – to see b&w in your mind and know what will work. That is much more important when shooting b&w film or a monochrome digital camera since I don't have a choice to use color.

When I carry a color camera, I find I don't think in b&w as much, but rather I discover in post-processing what might make a good b&w shot – often they are images that don't work well in color.

One advantage the color camera has is the ability to make a darker b&w sky from a day where the sky was not as blue as it needs to be for a monochrome camera. Even with a red filter, I have to wait for deep blue skies to get the best near-black skies – but with a color camera, I can get there more easily – a crutch perhaps, but also an advantage at times. That said, there is something about being forced to shooting b&w that I find rewarding – not superior: enjoyable.

Forgive the non-Leica image, but here's an example of using a color camera to achieve a level of black in the sky that I couldn't have on that day if I were shooting monochrome – the sky was not blue enough from top to bottom – on a monochrome sensor, it would have been a less dramatic gradient of tones. One could argue that Ansel might prefer making b&w conversions from a color digital camera over a monochrome, especially as his preference for a more dramatic interpretation of Hernandez image evolved over time. 

 

Moonrise, Placitas, New Mexico
GFX 50S + GF 63

 

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2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

As a reminder this is why: 

“Both the M10 Monochrom and the Q2 Monochrom have one attribute that no other digital cameras have:  They cause the image maker tothink in black and white.

A patently untrue statement.

Bye.

If one does not think in black and white while using a monochrome sensor, they do so to their own detriment.

After a few "rolls" of ones and zeros through my Q2M, I began to think differently – I had to.

I think those who do not adapt in this way to a monochrome sensor are among those that end up selling them and moving on.

Also, I do not think saying this ^ is saying using a monochrome sensor is somehow superior. It simply provides a different experience that some of us find more enjoyable.

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17 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, and I think we can separate the ability to visualize a scene and know it will make a good b&w photo from how the EVF/LCD can help confirm our visualization once we have it up to our eye. Certainly I won't be wearing b&w glasses as I drive through New Mexico – we already have enough trouble here with everyone running red lights :)

The skill of thinking in b&w is paramount – to see b&w in your mind and know what will work. That is much more important when shooting b&w film or a monochrome digital camera since I don't have a choice to use color.

When I carry a color camera, I find I don't think in b&w as much, but rather I discover in post-processing what might make a good b&w shot – often they are images that don't work well in color.

One advantage the color camera has is the ability to make a darker b&w sky from a day where the sky was not as blue as it needs to be for a monochrome camera. Even with a red filter, I have to wait for deep blue skies to get the best near-black skies – but with a color camera, I can get there more easily – a crutch perhaps, but also an advantage at times. That said, there is something about being forced to shooting b&w that I find rewarding – not superior: enjoyable.

Forgive the non-Leica image, but here's an example of using a color camera to achieve a level of black in the sky that I couldn't have on that day if I were shooting monochrome – the sky was not blue enough from top to bottom – on a monochrome sensor, it would have been a less dramatic gradient of tones. One could argue that Ansel might prefer making b&w conversions from a color digital camera over a monochrome, especially as his preference for a more dramatic interpretation of Hernandez image evolved over time. 

 

Moonrise, Placitas, New Mexico
GFX 50S + GF 63

 

Agree with much (I lived in New Mexico for 5 years), especially the part about using color channels in PP with color based sensors. That’s an unwelcome trade off for me when using the M Monochrom. That said, while I appreciate the editing flexibility color channels provide, I prefer lighter, more natural skies, even for Ansel’s Moonrise, which as you know he continually reinterpreted over a 34 year period.

https://www.andrewsmithgallery.com/exhibitions/anseladams/arrington/arrington_adams.html

Interestingly, I use all my M cameras, including the Monochrom, with RF only and without setting the VF to b&w. Some film traditions never die, despite technological advances. Even when I use a color based camera, I almost always decide in advance if my intent is b/w; I don’t like to experiment in post for that aspect.  With an M Monochrom, though, I’m better at staying in that b/w mindset and finding desired compositions. Thankfully we’re all different, in approach and in results; otherwise photography would be boring.

Jeff

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9 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Agree with much (I lived in New Mexico for 5 years), especially the part about using color channels in PP with color based sensors. That’s an unwelcome trade off for me when using the M Monochrom. That said, while I appreciate the editing flexibility color channels provide, I prefer lighter, more natural skies, even for Ansel’s Moonrise, which as you know he continually reinterpreted over a 34 year period.

https://www.andrewsmithgallery.com/exhibitions/anseladams/arrington/arrington_adams.html

Interestingly, I use all my M cameras, including the Monochrom, with RF only and without setting the VF to b&w. Some film traditions never die, despite technological advances. Even when I use a color based camera, I almost always decide in advance if my intent is b/w; I don’t like to experiment in post for that aspect.  With an M Monochrom, though, I’m better at staying in that b/w mindset and finding desired compositions. Thankfully we’re all different, in approach and in results; otherwise photography would be boring.

Jeff

I am coming around to the more natural skies as well, allowing myself the freedom of that interpretation. Not every b&w sky has to look like it was taken on the moon :)

Last week I took only the M10M with me on a business trip to Taos, and I enjoyed using it for vacation-style photos, just snapping away at anything I found interesting. I'm still relearning how to think in b&w, in particular learning how the M10M interprets color into b&w and adjusting my thinking to match. My instinctual thinking in b&w is more closely tied to high-contrast film/printing. I find the M10M is more like film printed to a lower contrast, matte fiber paper, whereas the Q2M is more like like film printed to a high contrast gloss paper – if that makes any sense.

M10M-LW / 50 Lux-M
B+W light red filter

 

M10M-LW / 28 Lux-M
B+W dark red filter

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4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I am coming around to the more natural skies as well, allowing myself the freedom of that interpretation. Not every b&w sky has to look like it was taken on the moon :)

Last week I took only the M10M with me on a business trip to Taos, and I enjoyed using it for vacation-style photos, just snapping away at anything I found interesting. I'm still relearning how to think in b&w, in particular learning how the M10M interprets color into b&w and adjusting my thinking to match. My instinctual thinking in b&w is more closely tied to high-contrast film/printing. I find the M10M is more like film printed to a lower contrast, matte fiber paper, whereas the Q2M is more like like film printed to a high contrast gloss paper – if that makes any sense.

M10M-LW / 50 Lux-M
B+W light red filter

 

M10M-LW / 28 Lux-M
B+W dark red filter


The tone curve is my friend (among other controls); I prefer not to have Leica and/or Adobe make my rendering decisions, as they remain image-specific, including paper choice. High dynamic range cameras typically have flatter files OOC, so these are just a starting point for me.  I don’t rely much on color filters either (mostly yellow if any), as LR and ImagePrint provide enormous flexibility for interpretation. But I use the controls judiciously, as I need; black skies (except at night) are not how I see the world.  Buyers love  dark skies, but I print for my own tastes. That said, I’m happy to print high or low contrast, depending on the scene and my desired result.  I can typically achieve that same result with any of my cameras, Monochrom or color based. 

Jeff

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23 hours ago, Kreeshp said:

 

My situation is different than your current dilemma but maybe it'll help your decision.

I bought a mint, used Q-P as my first Leica because I wanted the updated power switch/shutter release, a late manufacture date, and the matte finish without the red logo -- all versus the OG version of the Q.  I recognized early on in my pre-purchase research that I don't want/need 47 megapixel (MP) files for my use case (99.5% viewing online; 0.5% prints) so I was not interested in the Q2 .

Like many, I fell deep into the Leica rabbit hole ...

I now believe I have the ultimate kit for me: autofocus, manual focus, color, monochrome, 28mm and 50mm (plus other focal lengths should I want to try other ones); all best in their class.  To me, each camera (Q-P, M10-P, Q2M) serves a unique purpose and I often carry two of them depending on whether I need autofocus and manual, or color and monochrom.  I'm able to justify to myself keeping all three...for now.

Many thanks for your thoughtful reply! Truly appreciated.

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1 hour ago, Richard K said:

Many thanks to all who replied to my dilemma question. Some pretty good discussion! I think I’ll supplement my Q2 with the Q2M. I’m old. I deserve it. Don’t tell my wife...😁

Good call! 

That's what I would have done.  😎

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:00 PM, Richard K said:

Many thanks to all who replied to my dilemma question. Some pretty good discussion! I think I’ll supplement my Q2 with the Q2M. I’m old. I deserve it. Don’t tell my wife...😁

Cover the Red Leica Dot on your Q2 so the 2 cameras look identical, then she’ll never know. 😀

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Posted (edited)

Such a heated discussion... Jeez:)

So let me add to the heat a bit if I may! My comments are not meant to be inflammatory or insulting, but if you take them as such, please know that this is NOT my intention.

To answer the initial question: For someone who has the money to spend on this question, the real answer is get whatever trips your trigger, i.e. whatever makes you fell better about yourself and makes you pick up the camera and have it with you at all times. For the rest of us common folk, we have to make do with possibly one camera and probably stretch a bit to buy any Leica, but I understand that this is not anybody else's problem but ours (common folk that is!).

If someone is shooting ONLY B&W, then yes, the Q2M is a purpose made tool and its output (as Le Chef has been arguing all along) will be better, although it really depends on the use case and the ability of the shooter, i.e. if they know how to make it tick, which if course is true of any camera or tool for that matter. If one is doing both color and B&W and (common folk again) money is an issue, then I would argue that the Q2 or the RX1 or any camera will serve them extremely well, because they are not giving up anything major (i.e. the ability to shoot both color and B&W) for trivial gains (again, they have to really know what they are doing) in IQ on one of their domain, that is the B&W. 

The Monochrome does NOT help anyone see or think in B&W, this is just a rationalisation for people who want to buy one. It sounds like a good justification to others (especially wives: dear, it is a game changer, it will help me advance my photography to a whole different level blah blah blah), but, let's be frank here among us boys, there is no magic way to see / think in B&W that can be attributed to a camera, when one can replicate the stimulus on the EVF/LCD by choosing to see in B&W through the settings of the Q2.

I would go a bit further to suggest something even more radical: if one cannot see / think in B&W without holding (HOLDING) a dedicated Monochrome camera in their hands (since we all agree that it is not the EVF that does the trick but the whole mentality that is afforded  to a photographer by merely buying a Q2M), please do yourselves a favour and save your money - you do not NEED a Monochrome camera, you are not there yet and you can certainly work on B&W with whatever camera you have in your hands and still produce great or mediocre results.

This is becoming a discussion among wealthy individuals who CAN own multiple Leica cameras and are trying to justify the purchase to themselves and/or others, which takes me full circle to my first point above.

I have been photographing for 40 years now and I can say with certainty that holding a monochrome camera won't help ANYONE see / think in B&W, the same way that HOLDING a camera with a 28 mm lens won't help you see the world in that field of view. It is through years of experience (regardless of camera in hand, but very much depending on camera next to your eye) that one learns to see in 28, 35, 50 or whatever. Seeing and thinking in terms of B&W is a learned trait but if you are expecting to learn it because you spent 6k on a camera, you've got another think coming...

Last but not least... cameras are primarily tools and yes, they can be our little babies too, I can understand that. BUT please, let's make points with our images to prove them, because otherwise it is just heat and a bit of show-offism... We can argue until the cows come home about the Q2M helping us see / think in B&W but the real test would be to see images that somehow exude that native, from zero to infinity, B&W mentality exclusively afforded to the photographer because they were HOLDING a monochrome camera:)

Again, I sincerely apologise if anyone is offended by my comments, certainly this was not my intention. We are here to talk and help each other and share experiences and showcase our work with our tools of choice. To that end, my work (recently with the Q2 and before that with many other cameras mentioned on my site) can be seen at writelight.net, among other places.

Happy shooting (with whatever you happen to be carrying!)

Edited by acg69
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Posted (edited)
Quote

...The Monochrome does NOT help anyone see or think in B&W...

... if one cannot see / think in B&W without holding (HOLDING) a dedicated Monochrome camera in their hands...  you are not there yet...

... This is becoming a discussion among wealthy individuals who CAN own multiple Leica cameras and are trying to justify the purchase to themselves and/or others...

🙄

Horse droppings - or personal opinion.  Either way, pretty much the same thing. 

If I may pose a question, exactly who anointed you as sole arbiter to determine who among us on this forum - or anywhere else - are or "are not there yet?"

My comments are not meant to be inflammatory or insulting, but if you take them as such, please know that this is NOT my intention.

Edited by Herr Barnack
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On 7/18/2021 at 12:00 PM, Richard K said:

Many thanks to all who replied to my dilemma question. Some pretty good discussion! I think I’ll supplement my Q2 with the Q2M. I’m old. I deserve it. Don’t tell my wife...😁

I've been thinking the same thing but to supplement my Q. I like my Q and don't see any reason to replace it with a Q2, but a Q2M with its better low light/iso performance could be the ticket. One thing I want is other focal lengths than 28mm. With the higher pixel count the internal crops don't hurt as much as with a Q. That could also be a reason for a Q2, but I don't want to replace the Q just supplement it and I enjoy B&W. 

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Dear Herr Barnack,

Your comments may indeed be horse droppings and that’s your prerogative obviously. They do not insult me of course because I just take them as such:) 

I still maintain that if you carefully read the statement I made, you will not be insulted, as I am not accusing anyone of "not being there". I am merely saying that someone who cannot think or see in B&W without the trivial (at best) help of a prop (a camera IN HAND that will magically condition/force/enable you to see/think in B&W) you do not need it, because your mastery of the art is at a lower level than the one that can make use of a purpose made tool such as the Q2M. For example, I do not consider myself at a level of photography that I need an S3 with an assortment of lenses because anything else just cramps my style. Of course, you may be the new HCB in which case, please teach me how to hold the Q2M (which I will promptly buy) so I can see/think in B&W better than I can now. What the heck, I will pay too:)

You can be offended by my personal opinion, but please refrain from leaving any more horse droppings;)

Over and out. Really.

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Posted (edited)

Dear acg69,

You are either confused or engaging in projection, and I don't think it's confused.  It is not I who is the purveyor of horse droppings.

Another example of your horse droppings -

Quote

"...This is becoming a discussion among wealthy individuals who CAN own multiple Leica cameras and are trying to justify the purchase to themselves and/or others..."

You are operating from a position of total ignorance with regard to the finances of others on this forum, yet you make sweeping generalizations and stereotype those who have more than one Leica as supposed "wealthy individuals" - as if those who have been able to create financial independence for themselves and their families are worthy of contempt.  They are not.

Even if there are people on this forum who have money to burn, as long as it was obtained by lawful and ethical means - AKA years of hard work, thrift and savvy investing -  what business is that of yours? 

Perhaps it is time to stop judging people who have more than one Leica camera and lens or whom you suspect of being financially prosperous.  Such thinking is irrational, silly and pointless.

That's all I have.  Now can we all just get along?

Edited by Herr Barnack
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2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Dear acg69,

You are either confused or engaging in projection, and I don't think it's confused.  It is not I who is the purveyor of horse droppings.

Another example of your horse droppings -

You are operating from a position of total ignorance with regard to the finances of others on this forum, yet you make sweeping generalizations and stereotype those who have more than one Leica as supposed "wealthy individuals" - as if those who have been able to create financial independence for themselves and their families are worthy of contempt.  They are not.

Even if there are people on this forum who have money to burn, as long as it was obtained by lawful and ethical means - AKA years of hard work, thrift and savvy investing -  what business is that of yours? 

Perhaps it is time to stop judging people who have more than one Leica camera and lens or whom you suspect of being financially prosperous.  Such thinking is irrational, silly and pointless.

That's all I have.  Now can we all just get along?

Dear Herr Barnack,

Although I am oh so tempted to tear those childish arguments apart (I am talking early childhood here...), I will not. As I said before, "over and out". I suspect that if you had trouble understanding that, it is conceivable that my other points would indeed be above your comprehension level, for which I apologise. Mea Culpa.

You did say one good thing though: Can we all get along? Yes, if we refrain from calling other people's opinions "horse droppings" which you did and I obviously had to reply. As to the $64,000 question: can you show me how the Q2M or other Monochrome camera helps you in the way you describe? Can you show me images made this way?

If not, please, say what you will if you must have the last word (in true kindergarten playground fashion) but I will not engage in this anymore. Not interesting and not interested;)

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37 minutes ago, acg69 said:

it is conceivable that my other points would indeed be above your comprehension level, for which I apologise. Mea Culpa.

I hate this type of sarcasm - seemingly apologising for having an infinitely superior level of intelligence.  Not clever, not clever at all.

 

40 minutes ago, acg69 said:

I will not engage in this anymore. Not interesting and not interested

Well, let us all be thankful for that.  Now perhaps we can all get back to doing what people on this forum actually like to do - taking photographs.

 

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