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Dilemma: Q2 and/or Q2 Monochrom?


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So if I have spent most of my photographic life using cameras that can shoot color or B&W but have chosen to shoot mostly in B&W, then I already see that way. I just don’t need a dedicated Monochrome camera to do that. I already have the discipline to think and shoot in B&W.

The key difference is output. Take the same shot with the Q2 and the Q2M and review the output on B&W and the Q2M should have a better range and variation of tones.

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20 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

So if I have spent most of my photographic life using cameras that can shoot color or B&W but have chosen to shoot mostly in B&W, then I already see that way. I just don’t need a dedicated Monochrome camera to do that. I already have the discipline to think and shoot in B&W.

 

As already noted, I used to say exactly the same thing here…. repeatedly for years… having shot b/w film (in many formats) since the 70’s. I get it. Then I switched to digital, adding color output to b/w in 2009. In 2017, I added a Monochrom. Turns out I was wrong.  

I’ve been printing (and custom matting/framing) since the 80’s, and I generally have equally fine b&w print results from my Monochrom and color based cameras.. when I do my job well.  I don’t make huge prints and I’m pleased with output from both. Nobody knows or cares which camera I used. But the experience can matter to me.

Jeff
 

Edited by Jeff S
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I don’t disagree that what matters is what you see as output.

But if you did a a double blind test using a Q2 and a Q2M and were not told which is which, could you tell simply by looking through the viewfinder, when the viewfinders were both set to show B&W? Highly unlikely. If both cameras had their EVFs set to B&W but I told you the Q2 was Monochrome and the Q2M was color with the EVF set to B&W would it change how you viewed your input/what you thought you were shooting? The answer is probably not.

The real test is the double blind on output: could you tell the difference? And that should tell you whether the Q2M is worth it.

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1 minute ago, Le Chef said:

I don’t disagree that what matters is what you see as output.

But if you did a a double blind test using a Q2 and a Q2M and were not told which is which, could you tell simply by looking through the viewfinder, when the viewfinders were both set to show B&W? Highly unlikely. If both cameras had their EVFs set to B&W but I told you the Q2 was Monochrome and the Q2M was color with the EVF set to B&W would it change how you viewed your input/what you thought you were shooting? The answer is probably not.

The real test is the double blind on output: could you tell the difference? And that should tell you whether the Q2M is worth it.

I give up.  The EVF has nothing to do with my comments.  The only thing that matters is how I experience the world when out shooting, not necessarily having a camera to my eye. Carry on.

Jeff

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On 7/16/2021 at 11:26 AM, Richard K said:

Yes I know it’s MY problem, but what would you do? I want to get the Q2 Monochrom. I currently have the Q2 and also a Sony rx1r.
Sell the Q2, put money towards the Q2 Monochrom and use the Sony for colour? The Sony IQ is excellent but no EVF and 24Mpx. Keep both Q2s and sell Sony? The Q2 of course does excellent B&W but...you know...

 

My situation is different than your current dilemma but maybe it'll help your decision.

I bought a mint, used Q-P as my first Leica because I wanted the updated power switch/shutter release, a late manufacture date, and the matte finish without the red logo -- all versus the OG version of the Q.  I recognized early on in my pre-purchase research that I don't want/need 47 megapixel (MP) files for my use case (99.5% viewing online; 0.5% prints) so I was not interested in the Q2 .

Like many, I fell deep into the Leica rabbit hole and bought a new M10-P within weeks of owning the Q-P after realizing that I wanted to try my hand at manual focus, the rangefinder experience, and the perspective of another lens.  At this point, I was content with my setup: autofocus, 28mm lens paired with manual focus, 50mm lens both with matched resolutions (24 MP).

In the background of all of this, I'd been eyeing the Q2M since its initial release but what put me off was that it cost more than the regular Q2 ($6195 vs $5495), and I couldn't justify this premium in my 'pre-monochrom thinking.'*  When one late night I came across a new Q2M that was significantly less than a Q2, I couldn't resist --  I found one on eBay, new from a camera store in Germany, for $48XX USD shipped to my door.  (*I've since come around and believe the Q2M to be a better camera than the Q2 - more specialized yes but better at its intended purpose and I'd be happy paying that premium now, having owned one.)

With my new Q2 Monochrom, I shoot in JPEG mode only since the files are so good.  This way, my file sizes are still compact and manageable.  I also don't have the desire or skills to post-process DNG files so 47MP files aren't a concern.  The Q2M tonality and low light performance are truly magical even in the 'crippled' JPEGs that I am happy with.  In the hands of a seasoned photographer who wants to manipulate DNGs they would be next level amazing.

I now believe I have the ultimate kit for me: autofocus, manual focus, color, monochrome, 28mm and 50mm (plus other focal lengths should I want to try other ones); all best in their class.  To me, each camera (Q-P, M10-P, Q2M) serves a unique purpose and I often carry two of them depending on whether I need autofocus and manual, or color and monochrom.  I'm able to justify to myself keeping all three...for now.

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“Both the M10 Monochrom and the Q2 Monochrom have one attribute that no other digital cameras have:  They cause the image maker tothink in black and white.”

So it’s obligatory to own either of these cameras to think in B&W? I think you’re inhabiting fantasy land if you believe that. You don’t need either to think or “see” in B&W. Did Anselm Adams own one when he developed his 11 zone theory? I think not.

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2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Ansel shot b/w film.  A monochrome digital camera comes closest to emulating the experience with a b/w sensor.

What do you think Ansel’s term ‘visualization’ means?

Jeff

Ansel also had to compose with the image upside down and flipped, right? 🙃 Maybe Leica could add that as a firmware option for the Q2 😁

Shooting the Q2M or Q2 in mono-JPEG mode actually negates the need for visualization – it's pre-visualized in real time, which Ansel would probably argue is superior were he still with us. Unfortunately the Q2 b&w modes do not include color filter emulations like Fujifilm and Canon do, which can mimic the look of a red filter. So in Leica world, the Q2M with the color filter already on the lens is more WYSIWYG versus the Q2.

Edited by hdmesa
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1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Ansel also had to compose with the image upside down and flipped, right? 🙃 Maybe Leica could add that as a firmware option for the Q2 😁

Shooting the Q2M or Q2 in mono-JPEG mode actually negates the need for visualization – it's pre-visualized in real time, which Ansel would probably argue is superior were he still with us. Unfortunately the Q2 b&w modes do not include color filter emulations like Fujifilm and Canon do, which can mimic the look of a red filter. So in Leica world, the Q2M with the color filter already on the lens is more WYSIWYG versus the Q2.

I had the opportunity to visit with Ansel in the 70’s in a discussion on pyro development to expand highlight recovery with the Zone System.  He mastered the tools he had at the time. Personally, I believe he’d be doing the same today with the current technology. 

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16 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I give up.  The EVF has nothing to do with my comments.  The only thing that matters is how I experience the world when out shooting, not necessarily having a camera to my eye. Carry on.

Jeff

But the EVF in monochrome can be a help to visualize B&W, analogous to a painter looking past his thumb to check perspective or using one's hands to form a framing square.

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

But the EVF in monochrome can be a help to visualize B&W, analogous to a painter looking past his thumb to check perspective or using one's hands to form a framing square.

I don’t walk around with the VF plastered to my eye.  The visualization I do is with my own eyes, not looking through the VF. Once again, my comments were about MY ability to think and see in b&w tonality, not the camera’s ability.  Even my M10’s EVF can be set to b&w; that’s not my point. Ansel’s whole premise with visualization was to see with his ‘minds eye’.
 

Jeff

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5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Ansel also had to compose with the image upside down and flipped, right? 🙃 Maybe Leica could add that as a firmware option for the Q2 😁

Shooting the Q2M or Q2 in mono-JPEG mode actually negates the need for visualization – it's pre-visualized in real time, which Ansel would probably argue is superior were he still with us. Unfortunately the Q2 b&w modes do not include color filter emulations like Fujifilm and Canon do, which can mimic the look of a red filter. So in Leica world, the Q2M with the color filter already on the lens is more WYSIWYG versus the Q2.

Ansel thought the term pre-visualization redundant, using visualization to mean seeing  with his ‘mind’s eye’.  If he had driven by Hernandez, New Mexico with a Q2 M, he would have hardly had the camera to his eye to visualize the Moonrise scene from his car.  He saw it already with his eyes and stopped the car. 
 

The EVF setting may indeed be useful for some for b/w.  But that’s not what MY comments were about.  I was merely stating why I find a monochrome based camera beneficial, which is to force ME into thinking and seeing about b/w tones (visualizing) while looking at the color world. For me, this comes about by the discipline of knowing that my camera can only take b/w pics (technically not totally true, but that’s another discussion). 
 

Jeff

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The point as I keep stating it is that Leica’s Monochrome cameras do not give you exclusivity to see in b&w - thats a fallacy - I can “see” b&w in my mind’s eye or in the EVF or LCD that I have adjusted to show only b&w. And I can do that with pretty much any camera. Does the M10 Monochrome OVF show images in color or b&w? The answer is no. If you refer to the LCD then both the M10 and M10 Monochrome can show images in b&w. And that applies to the EVF and LCD’s of both the Q2 and Q2M.

So I don’t need a Monochrome camera to “see” in b&w as some here would claim.

As I keep saying the near exclusive benefit of the Leica Monochrome cameras is output not input.

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2 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

The point as I keep stating it is that Leica’s Monochrome cameras do not give you exclusivity to see in b&w - thats a fallacy - I can “see” b&w in my mind’s eye or in the EVF or LCD that I have adjusted to show only b&w. And I can do that with pretty much any camera. Does the M10 Monochrome OVF show images in color or b&w? The answer is no. If you refer to the LCD then both the M10 and M10 Monochrome can show images in b&w. And that applies to the EVF and LCD’s of both the Q2 and Q2M.

So I don’t need a Monochrome camera to “see” in b&w as some here would claim.

As I keep saying the near exclusive benefit of the Leica Monochrome cameras is output not input.

I can also visualize in b/w using any camera, I just do it better with either a monochrome based digital camera, or with a camera continually loaded with b/w film, because I’m not distracted by looking for both color and b/w pics at the same time when out and about, just walking around. I didn’t believe, for years, that this would be the case, as I developed discipline over 40 years using b/w film.  But then I bought a Monochrom and found that years of looking for both color and b/w pics had somewhat diluted that discipline.

As far as output differences, the proof for me is my own prints. When I do my job well, I can make equally fine prints (I don’t print huge) with any of my digital cameras, Monochrom or color based. My camera choice is dictated by things other than print quality (focal length or need for zooms, weather sealing, etc). 
 

Your points may be valid for you (assuming you’ve used a Monochrom); they don’t apply to my actual experience. We’re all different.  Others will surely have different preferences, rationales and experiences.
 

Jeff

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Everyone has a rationale for why they would make a purchase, I purchased the Q2M as it created intention.  Whenever I take the Q2M out, I know there will be no color shots and I'm forced to concentrate on shapes and light as I look at the scene/composition.  

I bring out the M10 or SL2 when I'm thinking in color or cannot make up my mind on B&W or color.

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1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

..So I don’t need a Monochrome camera to “see” in b&w as some here would claim...

Then don't buy one.

And if it's not too much to ask - but it undoubtedly is - please abstain from lambasting the camera and those who shoot with it. 

 

 

Edited by Herr Barnack
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2 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Then don't buy one.

And if it's not too much to ask - but it probably is - stop lambasting the camera and those who shoot with it.

 

I’m doing neither if you bothered to read what I had written. But that’s probably too much to ask.

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