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M-D 262 Shutter count


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I have been assuming that on the M-D the image filename eg  L1001234.DNG is the same thing as a shutter count. After all, there is no menu to reset or amend filename numbering, so that makes it tamper-proof?

Edited by Datsch
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6 hours ago, Datsch said:

I have been assuming that on the M-D the image filename eg  L1001234.DNG is the same thing as a shutter count. After all, there is no menu to reset or amend filename numbering, so that makes it tamper-proof?

The camera firmware itself can "tamper" with the image filenames, at various points.

- Once you reach picture L1009999, the camera will rest to L1000000 (the first three digits are reserved for folder numbers, such as "100LEICA" - although Leica has been inconsistent in programing that).

- Similar to what Jaap describes, inserting and using an SD card that had previously been used in another Leica digital camera can cause the numbering to reset: e.g. you have shot 4523 pictures, and then insert and format a card with a highest picture number of L1007000 - the camera will reset to L1007001 (this is to prevent any two images ever ending up with the exact same file name - at least in theory). Thus jumping 2478 file numbers at once, without corresponding shutter actuations.

- I don't use the FOTOS app (or M-D 262) - but it may be able to reset the file or folder numbering remotely. That would only be with intentional user intervention, however.

- A firmware update may cause the numbers to reset to L1000000. I notice that can happen with the Leica Q: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4405271

Bottom line - Leica does not consider the file numbering to be a substitute for a shutter actuation counter, so they take no effort to preserve a 1:1 relationship. But in some cases - with the M-D 262 - it may be a reasonable approximation.

At one point (through the M9) the hexadecimal "unique image ID" was a good guide to shutter actuations,  but these days that returns nonsense values such as

0x4FD04248AA05F620A1CB61 = 5751169604009719328 (5.7 quintillion) "exposures"

Edited by adan
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Thanks to @adan and @jaapv for this. So it seems that for the M-D it is a bit like the odometer of an old car -- your can perhaps find a camera that looks like is has done 3000 shots but in fact has done 13000 shots or even 23000 shots.

So the image number does not go 101,102 in the folder part of the number? eg L1020012.DNG ?

I suppose the ultimate context for interpreting this number  is the Shutter Rating of the camera -- for example a Nikon D850 is rated at 200,000 shots -- is there a similar number for the life expectancy for the shutter of the M240/262/D ?  I can't see it in the manual or technical specifications.

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You can (or at least could) get the m9 shutter count from the service menu

AFAIK This feature was dropped in the 240 possibly because the shutter opens for live view as well as picture taking. Leica could of perhaps reinstated it for the 262\M-D but I guess their lower production runs (compared to the 240) meant that they didn’t want to invest the resources into the coding change.

Just a hunch.

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For me this count is not important.

In the manual, the file number can be L101 xxxx etc.

As I have not done more than 10 000 pics, I don't know if the M-D would go to L101 0001 after L100 9999 or not 😉.

🦄

Maybe one M-D owner can simulate that, insert SD card with file num. L100 9999 just to see what happends after taking a pic.

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Well spotted  @a.noctilux the manual says: "Data structure on the memory card
The 100LEICA, 101LEICA, etc. folders can each hold up to 9999 pictures."

30 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Maybe one M-D owner can simulate that, insert SD card with file num. L100 9999 just to see what happends after taking a pic.

I would worry that would set my mystery shutter count to be 10,000 in the camera itself ... ? Then when I put my normal card back in it would go from eg L1003001 to L1010001 ... ? Probably not, but like you I am interested, but not so interested as to mess with my own camera 🙂

 

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On my 240 once the file number reached M1009999*, the camera reverted to M1000001 (as Adan says above)

I seem to recall that the folder name changed from 100Leica to 101Leica (or something like that)

 

*My M9 is L100xx, the (now sold) 240 was M100xx, and my new to me M10 is N100xx (I guess my next Leica will O100 and so on!!)

 

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4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

...AFAIK (shutter actuations) was dropped in the 240 possibly because the shutter opens for live view as well as picture taking...

Yes. One well-known London dealership confirmed to me that this was one reason; another being the ability of the camera to shoot video clips.

My old M9-P had reached file 1077xxx by the time I traded it in and, unfortunately, my cards all reset with the result that both my M Monochrom and M-D Typ-262 produce DNG files with digits only a couple of thousand apart. This means that pretty soon there will be duplicated file names from both bodies. It might be (it more than likely is) possible to re-set / do something with the Monochrom numbering but for the time being I'm just careful to keep the files on the laptop in folders dedicated to each camera.

Philip.

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1 hour ago, pippy said:

Yes. One well-known London dealership confirmed to me that this was one reason; another being the ability of the camera to shoot video clips.

My old M9-P had reached file 1077xxx by the time I traded it in and, unfortunately, my cards all reset with the result that both my M Monochrom and M-D Typ-262 produce DNG files with digits only a couple of thousand apart. This means that pretty soon there will be duplicated file names from both bodies. It might be (it more than likely is) possible to re-set / do something with the Monochrom numbering but for the time being I'm just careful to keep the files on the laptop in folders dedicated to each camera.

Philip.

(Amongst other folders) I keep a folder of all the images I put on Flickr, once I got the 240 to go round the clock on the file names, I found I had duplicate file name issues exporting to the Flickr folder! (File name conflict but different images 🙄!)

 

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3 hours ago, pippy said:

unfortunately, my cards all reset with the result that both my M Monochrom and M-D Typ-262 produce DNG files with digits only a couple of thousand apart. This means that pretty soon there will be duplicated file names from both bodies. It might be (it more than likely is) possible to re-set / do something with the Monochrom numbering but for the time being I'm just careful to keep the files on the laptop in folders dedicated to each camera.

 

My trick here (with two M10s, but starting back with my M9s) is to have easily-identifiable separate card groups for each camera (I use only 8-gig cards for the silver body, and 16/32-gig cards for the black body).

And then intentionally reset the numbering so that one camera has an ODD leading number, and the other has an EVEN leading number (e.g. M10 silver is currently numbering pictures as L105xxxx, and the newer black M10 is numbering pictures L106xxxx). When they "turn over the odometer" at 9999, I will reset them to be L107xxxx and L108xxxx, respectively. And so on.

Question - does the M-D 262 work with the FOTOS app? And can that be used - when needed - to access the camera's menus?

.....................

I guess this is why the "-D" cameras have never attracted me. Yes, one can take pictures 'til the cows come home - but there are still practical problems.

It is a bit like trying to run a modern word-processing program (or even simply write on this forum) by hard-wiring an old Underwood typewriter as the keyboard. Which is possible.

https://www.instructables.com/Typewriter-Computer-Keyboard/

Yes, one can then "type" in the old Ernest-Hemingway style* - but what if you need cursor or function keys to navigate a document - or even "Save" it? At the very least, you'd need a mouse in addition, to use the menus.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

__________________

* for that matter, one can even "shoot Leica in the old-Ernest-Hemingway style" ;): https://www.photoxels.com/ernest-hemingways-leica-is-on-auction/

Edited by adan
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19 minutes ago, adan said:

Question - does the M-D 262 work with the FOTOS app? And can that be used - when needed - to access the camera's menus?...

Thanks for the suggestions, Andy, and I will probably do something about the Monochrom's card numbering system as it should be fairly straightforward to address. The M-D (in case you are unfamiliar with some aspects) has no menu whatsoever. Control-wise (on-off & selftimer apart) the body has just ISO and shutter-speed. Lens (obviously) provides the usual. That's it. Nothing else. Digital-M Perfection. Nearly....

From memory when I ran the M8.2 and M9-P together I had a system not too dissimilar to your own. If I leave the M-D as-is and set the Mono cards to, say, L200xxx then I should be OK for the forseeable!

No; the FOTOS works with the M10D but not the earlier camera - and I wouldn't have it any other way! For me the unmatched pleasure(s) of using the M-D far outweigh trifling irritations such as duplicate file numbers...:lol:...

Thanks again!

Philip.

Edited by pippy
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Dunno - sounds a bit like the "pleasures" of a brand-new electric car that still has to be hand-cranked for "starting." ;)

But to each their own, and I guess Leica found a worthwhile niche-within-a-niche.

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1 hour ago, adan said:

Dunno - sounds a bit like the "pleasures" of a brand-new electric car that still has to be hand-cranked for "starting." ;)...

Ha! No, absolutely nothing of the sort, Andy. It behaves exactly like any other digital-M camera. Nothing complex about it. If one knows how to use a camera.

It's effectively a digital M6 - that's all. Or, if you like (and as I've mentioned somewhere before), it's an M2 with TTL metering. Simple, straightforward 'filmic' shooting experience with a 'roll of film' which goes past frame 36. It truly is exactly that. For anyone who knows how to use a film M the M-D is child's play. If in some slight doubt about the exposure-accuracy? Bracket either side. Just as I did in my film days when shooting important stuff for clients. No change there at all.

I fully understand why the rear-screen is universally popular and I use the one on my Monochrom when I'm unsure about the exposure conditions so I'm not such a Luddite as to say Progress Is Not Progress but trust me; you really need to try out an M-D for yourself for a few days. You'd become a convert......

:)

Philip.

Edited by pippy
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Thanks to the OP for starting this thread as the points raised later re the file numbering system have just become very pertinent to me having added a second M Edition 60.

I have modified folder numbers set up for my M240P and M9M but now realise I need to "fool" one of the M60s otherwise confusion awaits if they "catch each other up"! 🙄

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