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The rarely shown Leica "72" or 18x24 made in Midland


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Laney says "150 appear to have been built in 1958-1963, numbered 357301 to 357450, similar to the late Wetzlar models with mask in rangefinder housing and flash synch. and film speed reminder in wind-on knob." Here are three photos of nº357382 I had in my Fontenelle collection.

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Edited by Pecole
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32 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Pierre,

That is a very nice Leica 72 which appears to be wearing an equally nice 50mm F2 Summitar*.

Is that 812248 on the lens?

Which would make it a contemporary of the "Dumer", 1950, which is 812276.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

No, Michael, not 812248 but nearly : it is serialled 812246* and my archives say :  "Bought to a Leitz employee, who said it is in fact pertaining to a first batch (serials 812242-812323) of disguised prototypes for the coming Summicron 50, made in september 1950". I should have noted in my comment about the camera - pity, this 87-years old contracting grey matter! - and I congratulate your eyes.

Friedly yours.

Pierre

Edited by Pecole
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2 minutes ago, Pecole said:

No, Michael, not 812248 but nearly : it is serialled 812246* and my archives say : "Bought from a Leitz employee, who said it is in fact pertaining to a first batch (812242-812323) of disguised prototypes for the Summicron 50, made in September 1950". I should have noted that in my comment about the camera - pity, this 87 years old contracting grey matter! - and I congratulate your eyes.

Friendly yours.

Pierre

Sorry for the multiplication of "answers", but the system must be faulty and refused my first version with a warning "This mention is required" and no "mention" to be found.

Pierre

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23 hours ago, Pecole said:

150 appear to have been built in 1958-1963, numbered 357301 to 357450

Is this not an odd serial number sequence for cameras made in this time period?

Attached is a clipping from the Burke & James 1959 catalog.  Note the unusual lenses offered with the camera.

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Hello Zeitz,

The serial numbers from the 357000 time period date the camera number assignment to around 1948. This is a time period when IIIa cameras were still being built. Many of the Leica 72 cameras were based on IIIa bodies. Some of which had IIIf black dial synchronization added.

It MIGHT be that the camera bodies utilized were left over IIIa production, possibly never originally completed, which were modified for 1/2 frame use.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

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2 hours ago, zeitz said:

Is this not an odd serial number sequence for cameras made in this time period?

Attached is a clipping from the Burke & James 1959 catalog.  Note the unusual lenses offered with the camera.

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Hy, zeitz,

You already had an explanation about the serial in the Michael answer.

I must confess I was more interested in the 38mm (?) lens offered with the Leica 72. Is it a Leica? probably not, like the "100mm f/2"; If you have any information, I'd like to have it. thanks in advcance.

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3 hours ago, Pecole said:

 If you have any information, I'd like to have it.

I just looked in Lager Vol 1, page 78.  He refers to the same 1959 B&J catalog page that I scanned.  He says "These 72's were leftovers and Burke and James was trying to sell them."  He also says E Leitz NY first cataloged them in 1954.  Perhaps Laney's production dates were actually delivery dates.

Concerning the odd lenses, Burke & James was a manufacturer as well as a retailer.  They advertise "The largest and most complete lens inventory!  Not an idle boast, but an absolute fact 28 pages of lenses, some one of a kind, some with hundreds of likenesses . . . and all offered for immediate delivery."  Burke & James also had the manufacturing capability to mount lenses to users requirements.  B&J also sold individual lens elements and offered to custom mount those.  B&J had its own line of lenses that used the trademark Carl Meyer.  Some of these lenses are believed to have come from the Carl Zeiss samples that were taken from Jena by the US Army at the end of WWII.  The US Army lenses were later sold off to a US retailer thought to be Burke & James.

I looked through all 28 pages of lenses.  I found two 38mm f3.5 lenses - Schneider Radionar (covers 1 x 1 in) and Westron (covers 1 x 1 1/2 in).  I found three 100mm f2.0 lenses -Angenieux S3, Ernamann Ernostar, and Carl Zeiss Biotar.  Being half-frame, the Leica 72 could use 35mm movie camera lenses.

It would be great if the collectors on this forum had examples of these lenses.

 

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12 hours ago, zeitz said:

I just looked in Lager Vol 1, page 78.  He refers to the same 1959 B&J catalog page that I scanned.  He says "These 72's were leftovers and Burke and James was trying to sell them."  He also says E Leitz NY first cataloged them in 1954.  Perhaps Laney's production dates were actually delivery dates.

Concerning the odd lenses, Burke & James was a manufacturer as well as a retailer.  They advertise "The largest and most complete lens inventory!  Not an idle boast, but an absolute fact 28 pages of lenses, some one of a kind, some with hundreds of likenesses . . . and all offered for immediate delivery."  Burke & James also had the manufacturing capability to mount lenses to users requirements.  B&J also sold individual lens elements and offered to custom mount those.  B&J had its own line of lenses that used the trademark Carl Meyer.  Some of these lenses are believed to have come from the Carl Zeiss samples that were taken from Jena by the US Army at the end of WWII.  The US Army lenses were later sold off to a US retailer thought to be Burke & James.

I looked through all 28 pages of lenses.  I found two 38mm f3.5 lenses - Schneider Radionar (covers 1 x 1 in) and Westron (covers 1 x 1 1/2 in).  I found three 100mm f2.0 lenses -Angenieux S3, Ernamann Ernostar, and Carl Zeiss Biotar.  Being half-frame, the Leica 72 could use 35mm movie camera lenses.

It would be great if the collectors on this forum had examples of these lenses.

 

Thank you very much for this detailed answer, zeitz. It would be interesting indeed to have advice and photos from an owner/user of one of these lenses, Let's hope...

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21 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Zeitz,

The serial numbers from the 357000 time period date the camera number assignment to around 1948. This is a time period when IIIa cameras were still being built. Many of the Leica 72 cameras were based on IIIa bodies. Some of which had IIIf black dial synchronization added.

It MIGHT be that the camera bodies utilized were left over IIIa production, possibly never originally completed, which were modified for 1/2 frame use.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Hi,

I'm afraid that's not 100% correct.

357201 to 357500 despite it's low number, are where some of the last screw mount lie as well as many 18x24. I had it documented in the article by Jerzy Wasovic and myself  "The quest for the last" (Viewfinder Vol.53#2). I also have a copy of the original book page with serials 357201-357230 and the few entries there (only 8 ) are all from 1963 and 1965. Most of them IIIa (6 out of the total 8 ) all built under order, and two 18x24 with no order number.

You also have some information about my 1965 IIIa in this post: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/297526-leica-iiia-serial-out-of-the-usual-batches-last/

Best wishes,

Augusto

Edited by tranquilo67
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Hello Augusto,

I am sorry if there is confusion about my explanation.

I am not writing that these cameras were built around 1948. I wrote that the time period that these numbers are reflective of, as a factor of when they would have been available originally, is around 1948. Leitz is well known for using Serial Numbers available at a certain time period, at a later date.

Best Regards,

Michael

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Leica 18x24 is yet another interestic topic in in Leica Story. There are few single 18x24 cameras with pre WWII serial number, possibly modified on special order but the regular production started late 40-ties. While the first 3 cameras were based on IIIc the later cameras were based on IIIa, later IIIa syn. Cameras produced in Wetzlar are more or less documented (serial number I mean), for Midland production no records may be found anymore. Lager says 357301-357450 are Midland, my observation confirm this. I found many cameras with number until 367448 and only one with higher number, 357605 (offered by Boris).
Midland experimented as well with 18x24 based on other models (some M4 half frame may be found). 18x24 from Wetzlar were later on part of interferometer microscope produced by microscopic division. Were delivered internally and thus are not mentioned in regular delivery records. I have heard that in a later time they were assembled in customer service and not in regular assembly dept.
Taking into consideration low quantity of cameras produced in Midland it is possible that kits were shipped from Wetzlar.
18x24 based on IIIa and IIIa syn differs with only 4 parts from regular 24x36 camera: film dial disc, sprocket drum (4 sprockets instead of regular 8), internal crate with 18x24 film window and top cover. Some on later cameras have an additional screw at backside, this is to improve film posiution on smaller sprocket drum.

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Am 24.6.2021 um 15:55 schrieb zeitz:

Attached is a clipping from the Burke & James 1959 catalog.

can you by see by chance what serial number is on the camera? All 18x24 I have seen  (31 from Wetzlar and 66 from Midland) have 1/1000, pamphlet says 1/500

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2 hours ago, jerzy said:

can you by see by chance what serial number is on the camera? All 18x24 I have seen  (31 from Wetzlar and 66 from Midland) have 1/1000, pamphlet says 1/500

Jerzy, you should read the thread more carefully. I gave the serial of my former 18x24 Midland, and the maximum speed appears (as 1/1000th) clearly on the disk.

Your dates are false, and a clear explanation is detailed in various contributions above, including about the different "versions".

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Pierre, sorry for missunderstanding but my question was addressed to "zeitz" who shown a copy of one page from Burke catalogue.

You have been so kind to mail be serial number and photos of your 72 some time ago, ao I had it already in my database

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5 hours ago, jerzy said:

can you by see by chance what serial number is on the camera?

Unfortunately neither the serial number nor the shutter speed dial are readable.  I can't even tell what the "50mm f2 coated lens in focusing mount, coupled to range finder" is.  Further does anyone know what "Separate shutter from one second to 1/500th" means?  Or what "Focal shutter couple directly to short focal length lenses" means?  I would not accept this ad as proof that these cameras were 1/500 cameras.   Of course now people will be changing 1/1000 shutter dials to 1/500 dials and representing them at the Leitz Photographica Auction as something even rarer.

Does anyone know when E. Leitz Midland started operations?  We know that the site was picked in 1952 and Midland Canada built the building for Leitz.  If the camera appears in the 1954 Leitz NY catalog, surely this must have been one of the first products from Midland.  I don't have a copy of the 1954 catalog, but the camera does appear in the 1955/58 Leica General Cataloque reprinted by Hove.  Model 72 also does not appear in the Leitz NY 1957 catalog.

 

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