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Owning an SL2 with a couple of m lenses to go, I really want to go back to an m camera, preferably the m10-r. What holds me back is the expectations for a new EVF, and that it might not work with cameras from before the m11. Any clues to whether a new EVF is coming, and if it would work with 'older' m models?

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Wow Gobert, very nicely said. I couldn’t have done it better.

Matter of tastes. Been using that tiny window for 30+ years. Glad you like it but enough is enough for me. Either the M11 will have a decent EVF or i will stick to my old M240 and modern EVF cameras as digital backs for my M lenses .

I happen to have some wonderfull M, R and LTM lenses that are difficult to focus using only the RF system.  28 to 75 mm OVF on an M all the way.  But wider and longer ... no go for me.  Put the EVF on an M or put the lens on an SL.  But I'm happy that Leica offer these choices.

Post #2 is spot on.

The future EVF will most probably plug into the hot shoe of earlier M cameras but would it make correct electrical connections and work as expected is different matter. There were some rumours of future M11 EVF being backward compatible with M10 platform but on past evidence of poor external EVF implementation I wouldn't consider this as credible until proven to be working, we will all find out in time. 

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I'm in the same camp as you here, but don't have enough history with the brand to have a good feel for it. I do think an m10-r would be a poor selection if it doesn't work with a new EVF. But then again, how long are you going to wait for that 'perfect' camera.

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Jeff, no I haven't - I'm sure its great. Also without EVF (I did have m10 and loved it w/o EVF - did a stupid thing and exchanged it for an SL2, and its not the same experience AT ALL to me). But I can wait to 11.11 and see if there's a new backward compatible EVF. Just looking for some more experienced Leica knowers if they believe a new will EVF will be compatible with m10 ...

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Leica Rumors said it will, but Peter has been wrong a lot, including SL2 release. If November is true M11 announcement, someone here will likely share inside scoop a bit before. Even then, only individual testing will reveal whether the camera/VF suits individual tastes, requirements and vision.  Some people love current solutions; some don’t.

Jeff

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I had never the need to buy and EVF. I am so in love with the optical RF system. It is so perfect and works so nice. Why to have a stupid small screen in or on your camera if you can have it all optical?

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1 minute ago, Gobert said:

I had never the need to buy and EVF. I am so in love with the optical RF system. It is so perfect and works so nice. Why to have a stupid small screen in or on your camera if you can have it all optical?

Wow Gobert, very nicely said. I couldn’t have done it better.

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21 minutes ago, Gobert said:

I had never the need to buy and EVF. I am so in love with the optical RF system. It is so perfect and works so nice. Why to have a stupid small screen in or on your camera if you can have it all optical?

Matter of tastes. Been using that tiny window for 30+ years. Glad you like it but enough is enough for me. Either the M11 will have a decent EVF or i will stick to my old M240 and modern EVF cameras as digital backs for my M lenses :cool:.

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1 hour ago, SunsetCreeps said:

I don't see a point in paying what a modern digital Leica costs just to slap an EVF on it. (when in reality you are paying to have a rangefinder experience) There are cameras (looking at Fuji) with much better EVF then I think Leica will ever make. 

But thats my opinion.

That EVF is crappy as well. As any EVF is.

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1 hour ago, SunsetCreeps said:

I don't see a point in paying what a modern digital Leica costs just to slap an EVF on it. (when in reality you are paying to have a rangefinder experience) There are cameras (looking at Fuji) with much better EVF then I think Leica will ever make. 

But thats my opinion.

I happen to have some wonderfull M, R and LTM lenses that are difficult to focus using only the RF system.  28 to 75 mm OVF on an M all the way.  But wider and longer ... no go for me.  Put the EVF on an M or put the lens on an SL.  But I'm happy that Leica offer these choices.

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1 hour ago, SunsetCreeps said:

I don't see a point in paying what a modern digital Leica costs just to slap an EVF on it. (when in reality you are paying to have a rangefinder experience) There are cameras (looking at Fuji) with much better EVF then I think Leica will ever make. 

But thats my opinion.

Welcome to the forum.

Leica has always provided add-ons to the M system - the original Visoflex even had its own lenses.

The electronic EVF is very useful when you need accurate framing (40 Summicron), for longer lenses (90mm and beyond), for lenses with no focusing flange (Zeiss 15/2.8 Distagon), adapted R lenses and for those with focus shift (35 Summilux ASPH).  Also, for those whose eyesight is failing, having focus magnification is a Godsend.

Interestingly, focus peaking, while a great idea, is rubbish for accuracy.  I’ve also found for wide angle lenses, and many others, the optical viewfinder is very accurate.  But the EVF does have its uses (particularly for the M10-D).  Not sure I will need to buy the new one, and I doubt it will work with existing cameras without overwhelming the processor and draining the battery - but what do I know …

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It is unclear what a rumored new EVF would improve. The rumored new EVF would likely require a rumored new M11.

I suggest trying out M10-R with the current EVF and decide if that works for you. If it does not, and the EVF experience is essential to you, then you postpone your Leica M purchase until Leica launches an M system that works for you (this year, next year, in 10 years?).

IMO, M Leicas are primarily rangefinder cameras that gain a secondary functionality when EVF is added.

 

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2 hours ago, SunsetCreeps said:

I don't see a point in paying what a modern digital Leica costs just to slap an EVF on it. (when in reality you are paying to have a rangefinder experience) There are cameras (looking at Fuji) with much better EVF then I think Leica will ever make. 

But thats my opinion.

IMO, M cameras are primarily rangefinder cameras and best used with the rangefinder. The EVF adds functionality to the rangefinder experience and therefore increases the flexibility of the M cameras. I do not think that EVF will ever replace the rangefinder as the primary mode of use.

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10 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Welcome to the forum.

Leica has always provided add-ons to the M system - the original Visoflex even had its own lenses.

The electronic EVF is very useful when you need accurate framing (40 Summicron), for longer lenses (90mm and beyond), for lenses with no focusing flange (Zeiss 15/2.8 Distagon), adapted R lenses and for those with focus shift (35 Summilux ASPH).  Also, for those whose eyesight is failing, having focus magnification is a Godsend.

Interestingly, focus peaking, while a great idea, is rubbish for accuracy.  I’ve also found for wide angle lenses, and many others, the optical viewfinder is very accurate.  But the EVF does have its uses (particularly for the M10-D).  Not sure I will need to buy the new one, and I doubt it will work with existing cameras without overwhelming the processor and draining the battery - but what do I know …

Thanks! Been lurking around for a long time and finally decided to register!

Yes good point about the "non standard" lenses when it comes to focusing, for me the Leica M is a "leisure" or "feel good" type of camera that I'm happy using with one or two "common" lenses and taking my time. I have other equipment if I absolutely need the "job done" that have far better EVF then the overpriced Leica offering. So far my experience with focus peaking has been alright, worked well when I needed it ( mind you I haven't used it that much)

 

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6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Welcome to the forum.

Leica has always provided add-ons to the M system - the original Visoflex even had its own lenses.

The electronic EVF is very useful when you need accurate framing (40 Summicron), for longer lenses (90mm and beyond), for lenses with no focusing flange (Zeiss 15/2.8 Distagon), adapted R lenses and for those with focus shift (35 Summilux ASPH).  Also, for those whose eyesight is failing, having focus magnification is a Godsend.

Interestingly, focus peaking, while a great idea, is rubbish for accuracy.  I’ve also found for wide angle lenses, and many others, the optical viewfinder is very accurate.  But the EVF does have its uses (particularly for the M10-D).  Not sure I will need to buy the new one, and I doubt it will work with existing cameras without overwhelming the processor and draining the battery - but what do I know …

I agree with you 100% on the current Visoflex. When the M240 was introduced with its EVF, I joked with Stefan Daniel that this was finally the "R Solution", after the demise of the R series. This was long before the SL was on the stage, so in a way it was the "R Solution". When I got my M10, I soon got the Visoflex 020. I used it primarily for table top photography or when I needed to focus and compose an R lens or Nikon lens such as my 28PC Nikkor.

On my Med Cruise in 2018, I started using it with my WATE to accurately frame building interiors and exteriors. Cathedrals, etc. By the second day, I had come up with a new SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). I would focus with the OVF, and then activate Live View on the rear screen and frame the shot with it. Cut down on worrying about damaging the Visoflex (I had lost the little case for it on our second day, somewhere in Monaco). When you are with people who are not serious photographers, even though they were all friends plus my wife, you need to have an efficient run and gun technique. This worked out quite well!

I agree that focus peaking is a great idea, but in reality it gets in the way of focusing accurately.

 

Edited by derleicaman
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On 6/10/2021 at 10:36 AM, SunsetCreeps said:

I don't see a point in paying what a modern digital Leica costs just to slap an EVF on it. (when in reality you are paying to have a rangefinder experience) There are cameras (looking at Fuji) with much better EVF then I think Leica will ever make. 

But thats my opinion.

I love the rangefinder. I have, for now, abandoned my micro four thirds (MFT) system in favor of just using M cameras and M lenses. For my 50mm lens (by far my most used) and for my 28mm lens I use the rangefinder. But when I use my 90mm or 135mm the rangefinder either forces me to f5.6 or f8, or else my focus is hit-or-miss. So I tend to switch to the Visoflex for my longer lenses. Combined with zooming in for focus I am much more successful. My 90mm is also the Macro and in that mode I always need the Visoflex. My MFT system was much easier to use. Just think of it, the camera focuses for you. How cool is that? But even then I most often used manual focus. I've used a rangefinder since the '70s. It has a number of advantages over a WYSIWYG viewfinder. The biggest for me is seeing what is not in the frame to help me know if I should include more. Its use in low light is much nicer than the grainy boosted image in a viewfinder.

Is the Visoflex great? No, of course not. But it does work for situations where the rangefinder, and my eyes, are not up to accurate focusing. Would I enjoy a better EVF? Sure. But my current kit works.

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