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Choosing a compact 28mm lens


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11 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Earlier described by several of us as ‘purplish’, a combination of red and blue (from sky and water), which is the basis for magenta.

Jeff

Yep, and as seen in my photo with the M9 and 4.5/21 C-Biogon.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/322807-new-21mm-sem-or-not-sem-that-is-the-question/?do=findComment&comment=4244781

Edited by MarkP
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My vote, FWIW, goes to the Elmarit. More of an all-rounder than any of the others for everyday shooting. And, since I don't really trust too much talk about such a subject, I shall simply upload some photos.  M10 and M10M + 28mm f2.8 Elmarit-M ASPH Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden! Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst

I think that the word "lines" is not a good choice. I'll take the first photo you posted as an example. There are wide vertical bands on  both sides of the photo. There is no pixel peeping required to see them nor any searching required. They are easily and immediately visible. It would seem that this is not due to the lens, as @lct has said, said, said and said again. So maybe it's due to the pp you have applied. Maybe you can post a non pp version? Of course we are not all looking on

The 28 Elmarit was my first Leica lens ever. It's just outstanding. I traded for a 35 because I don't to enjoy framing and using a 0.72x with a 28mm FL. But, wow. I remember I was so impressed by the 3D pop of this pic. It's just me, or it's there? Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden! It was just a snapshot of a family. But look the almost SOOC result. When I see results like

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51 minutes ago, Harpomatic said:

I don’t think on this forum it would work, it seems that the focus is a lot more on technical or rendering characteristics of the lenses than on the images

very true...and the usual group of people making silly, snarky, sarcastic comments

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Harpomatic said:

I might be late to the party as I’m reading the thread, but the red channel doesn’t seem to be the issue: it seems to be magenta. 
By the way I see that magenta cast as clear as day.

58 minutes ago, MarkP said:

Thanks Harpomaniac. So right about it indeed being magenta and settling that once and for all. We use the red cast term too loosely. Again - it is bleeding obvious in the photos.

In the light of how this thread was going, I tried to establish objective bases for judging what was presented as red/purple areas within bands drawn on the left and right sides of the image. One was color blindness: It seems that, on a properly profiled monitor, online color blindness tests can to some degree alert people to some color blindness, though I don't know to what degree these tests are vitiated by a monitor that is off calibration. The other was testing the image with the Photoshop eyedropper, which (in Pantone terms) showed that one small area in the left band was "blue-magenta", while the others were "blue". There may be better tools for this, though I don't know them.

The other issue with this thread is "people making silly, snarky, sarcastic comments". You can judge for yourself what is funny versus what is ridiculing people. But be careful about writing "it is bleeding obvious in the photos" because some people may accuse of saying that the image is "bleeding magenta"... <big smiley>.
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Frog Leaping photobook

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19 minutes ago, 250swb said:

And it has a slight colour cast, maybe a WB problem.

Auto WB. As i said it is an OoC jpeg so the culprit if any can only be the camera, not the lens and, needless to say, not me ;).

Edited by lct
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4 minutes ago, lct said:

Auto WB. As i said it is an OoC jpeg so the only culprit if any can be the camera, not the lens and, needless to say, not me ;).

If you use it try opening the photo in ACR and while the full range of WB doesn't come up the choice is 'As Shot' or 'Auto' (Adobe's idea of WB). Auto cleans the greens up but you'll see a big difference in the gravel that cleans up a lot. I don't think Leica's post M9 colour management does any favours when judging lenses, or just in everyday photography, further complicated when third party lenses can usually be coded two or three ways.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, lct said:

I see no magenta edge issue out of the 28/2.8 asph either. You may wish to tweak this OoC jpeg as you like and form your own opinion...

Having been following the main flow of this thread and, subsequently, the tributary which is considering the magenta fringing issue I checked-out (in the spirit of curiosity) a few dozen snaps I had taken under many different circumstances using my own 28 Elmarit asph. and there was no trace on any magenta in any image. Cue a typical 'blue-sky' example for comparison purposes;

On the other hand!.....

My 21mm f4 Super-Angulon seems to be even worse more susceptible to fringing than does, for instance, Ianman's as seen in post #327 on page 17. Might this be due to the following pic having been taken on the M-D with, for obvious reasons, no possibility of having dialled-in any 21mm in-camera auto-correction? Image is SOOC processed-out / converted to JPEG with no PP whatsoever;

Philip.

Edited by pippy
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I know a little bit how to tweak a pic file since my first digital camera in 2002 folks :cool:. I simply don't do it on purpose here as the topic at hand is not lct's pp skills (or lack thereof) but the so-called red edge (or magenta edge) issue of the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 asph. 

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14 minutes ago, lct said:

I know a little bit how to tweak a pic file since my first digital camera in 2002 folks :cool:. I simply don't do it on purpose here as the topic at hand is not lct's pp skills (or lack thereof) but the so-called red edge (or magenta edge) issue of the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 asph. 

I vote that we all embrace the magenta fringing and celebrate - as it does - this wonderful harkening-back to the greatest days of some of the finest Ukiyo-e artists Japan ever produced. Here's one example created by none other than the great Katsushika Hokusai himself;

Philip.

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38 minutes ago, lct said:

I know a little bit how to tweak a pic file since my first digital camera in 2002 folks :cool:. I simply don't do it on purpose here as the topic at hand is not lct's pp skills (or lack thereof) but the so-called red edge (or magenta edge) issue of the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 asph. 

I thought topic of that particular part of the thread was the purple/magenta borders (or not) of some of the images posted by Steven. I think it was established quite soon that the lens did not produce these, although I can still see them on the non pp version of the first image. Some see it, some don't. It's a pity that it looks like we will never find out why, it will remain one of lifes great mysteries :) It's also a shame that having moved on the thread has come back to that particular subject.

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2 minutes ago, ianman said:

...It's also a shame that having moved on the thread has come back to that particular subject...

Had it moved on, Ian? Oops! I guess I must have missed that bit...

I suppose I thought that as Steven had eventually settled on the Elmarit we were all just throwing out various matters pertaining to the lens and the images he posted.

[blush]

My apologies to Steven and anyone else who fancies having them!

Philip.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, lct said:

I know a little bit how to tweak a pic file since my first digital camera in 2002 folks :cool:. I simply don't do it on purpose here as the topic at hand is not lct's pp skills (or lack thereof) but the so-called red edge (or magenta edge) issue of the Elmarit-M 28/2.8 asph. 

But to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, eliminate the variables and whatever remains, even if it's magenta edges, must be the truth. All these threads go around and around because half the time is spent looking at pictures that haven't been processed in the belief that no processing equates to the truth.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Harpomatic said:

Can I ask you to point me to that forum please? 

It's a French forum specially for film photography. If you think you (or any other readers of course) are still interested I will message you the link. Let me know :)

6 hours ago, Harpomatic said:

Constructive critique is one of the best learning tools for a photographer but most bristle as soon as anybody doesn’t gush all over the image.

As we have seen!

6 hours ago, Harpomatic said:

I want to have peer and intelligent critique on the images. I don’t think on this forum it would work, it seems that the focus is a lot more on technical or rendering characteristics of the lenses than on the images. This is an observation, not criticism.

Personally I care little for the techincal side of things. I'm not at all interested in lens graphs and mega pixel count, etc. I wrote in a previous post that a phot can be made on a gold-plated M11 or a home made wooden pinhole camera. I don't give a hoot. What counts is the photograph produced.

Surely, we are people who enjoy photography and the photographs of others. I know I do. And I also know that I have a lot to learn and really appreciate when people (photographers or not) give their honest opinion on the images I post. And even more so when that opinion is accompanied by reasoning and suggestions.

In this case, some of us saw what seemed to be purple/magenta cast on the edges, it was mentioned and wondered why it happened. Nobody critised or blames the photographer, nobody critised or blamed the lens. I thought it was obivous that it was well-meaning. It really was as simple as that but from there it got blown out of all proportion.

When I first joined the forum IIRC there was some amount of constructive critique but some members couldn't take it if anyone posted a comment that suggested that a photograph could be improved upon. One member in particular (Bill, I think it was) was particularly in favour of any photo being posted on a public forum should be open to constructive critique unless requested otherwise by the poster. I was all for it.

Edited by ianman
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48 minutes ago, 250swb said:

But to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, eliminate the variables and whatever remains, even if it's magenta edges, must be the truth. All these threads go around and around because half the time is spent looking at pictures that haven't been processed in the belief that no processing equates to the truth.

Indeed but lenses don't lie and the truth may come from the camera too. Super-Angulon 21/3.4 at f/5.6 on M240 and A7r2 mod. OoC jpegs again.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, lct said:

Indeed but lenses don't lie and the truth may come from the camera too. Super-Angulon 21/3.4 at f/5.6 on M240 and A7r2 mod. OoC jpegs again.

 

 

I wasn't trying to catch you out or question your experience with colour processing, but underneath any OoC file there is a world of variables that need addressing which are never revealed. It's a wider generalisation on the forum but whenever the sword is raised into the air and the sunlight gleams of its blade the cry 'I don't do any post processing' is a guarantee that the image isn't as good as it could be. Which also means talking about lens colour shifts etc. also becomes futile with OoC files and their supposed ability to be a datum point. That's all, nothing intended, no attack. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lct said:

Indeed but lenses don't lie and the truth may come from the camera

The „Italian-Flag-Syndrom“ - magenta cast on one side, cyan cast on the other - has been extensively discussed during the early times of the M9. Even if I never saw an explanation of the physics which caused it, there was consent that it was caused by interaction between lens and sensor. Lenses with a small exit pupil and/or an exit pupil close to the sensor caused it. It was a „feature“ of wide angle lenses which were built traditionally, not only extreme wide angles like the 21mm Super-Angulon, or some 15mm lenses. I could reproduce the magenta/cyan drift with a 35mm or a 28mm Summicron. It was not regularly visible, but in some cases, depending on the light and the surroundings, it was. (Edit: if one of your photos had the magenta edges you could not cure it by post procession: desaturating magenta would reveal the cyan cast on the othe edge , which generally was not very obvious, etc.).

When the M (Typ 240) was introduced I saw an example with the 28 Elmarit asph. in the German part of the Forum which shocked me: it was worse than what I had known from the M9 where the problem had been reduced by a firmware update. A firmware tweek for the M (Typ 240) reduced it as well, but it was never really solved.

Leica introduced a new version of the 28Elmarit asph. later and it was not clear what they had changed, but I understood they improved the „interaction“ with the sensor to avoid the magenta/cyan shift. Since the thread is so long I could not find any remarks whether the photos where some (me included) see a magenta shift were taken with the first or second version of the Elmarit asph. I also could not find a remark which camera was used: if it was an M10 this would astonish me, as I found the M10 rather immune against the „syndome“: my 18, 21mm Super-Elmars don‘t show any issue with the M10, whilst the 18mm was the typical lens which caused it on earlier models, though of course the 21mm Super-Angulon still shows the magenta very stongly with the M 10. 

 



 

Edited by UliWer
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