Leica SL2s ,M-lenses, Multi shot shooting

[Khun Hans]

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Tried to do  Multi-shot exposure on my SL2s with Summicron-M 50mm, Super-Elmar-M21mm, Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 35mm. File size 12000x8000=96MB.

Terrible result with all 3 lenses and I thought of doing something wrong. Changed to a super rigid tripod and the results were the same bad. Pictures look at 100% kind of having poor resolution.

Even the 1 shot DNG files are in no way the quality of the same lenses on my M10-R. I use the original  Leica M Adapter to L. All pictures shorter than 1/1000s. 100% crop.

Anybody comes to the same conclusion.

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Edited June 3, 2021 by Khun Hans

[i-Leica]

with just DNG you have only 24 MP - the M10R has 40 MP....

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[Photoworks]

M lenses are ok on SL2, but not best performers for high megapixel.

this is the SL2 multishot with 21SEM. 1st is 47MP and 2nd is 187MP

https://photos.alexkroke.com/TESTS/Multi-shot/n-6BL8Lb/

 

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gsJFGcZ/0/acc7b3dc/O/i-gsJFGcZ.jpg

[LocalHero1953]

I use multishot with the SL2S for copying large format (5x4) negatives without problems. I use the 24-90SL zoom (at 90mm), and a lightweight Gitzo tripod.

Multishot on the SL2-S gives you two files, both DNG: one at the multishot resolution, one at standard resolution. From your post it looks like you have selected the right one, but just checking you haven't accidentally selected the 24mp version? I have always deleted the 24mp version without looking too closely at its quality.

[Khun Hans]

1 hour ago, i-Leica said:

with just DNG you have only 24 MP - the M10R has 40 MP....

??????

[Khun Hans]

 

 

39 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I use multishot with the SL2S for copying large format (5x4) negatives without problems. I use the 24-90SL zoom (at 90mm), and a lightweight Gitzo tripod.

Multishot on the SL2-S gives you two files, both DNG: one at the multishot resolution, one at standard resolution. From your post it looks like you have selected the right one, but just checking you haven't accidentally selected the 24mp version? I have always deleted the 24mp version without looking too closely at its quality.

Different story.

I'm talking about M-lenses with Multi Shot Shooting on the SL2s. My shown picture is 100% crop from a 96 MB file.

[Khun Hans]

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4 hours ago, Khun Hans said:

Tried to do  Multi-shot exposure on my SL2s with Summicron-M 50mm, Super-Elmar-M21mm, Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 35mm. File size 12000x8000=96MB.

Terrible result with all 3 lenses and I thought of doing something wrong. Changed to a super rigid tripod and the results were the same bad. Pictures look at 100% kind of having poor resolution.

Even the 1 shot DNG files are in no way the quality of the same lenses on my M10-R. I use the original  Leica M Adapter to L. All pictures shorter than 1/1000s. 100% crop.

Anybody comes to the same conclusion.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Again to be clear:

The picture shows a 100% crop of a 96 MB Multi shot exposure with a SL2s. Lens: Summilux 1,4/50mm.  This was my bad experience with Multi Shot.

Then I compared the original 24MP DNG file of the SL2s with the same lenses with the 40MP files out of the 10R and discovered  that all 3 lenses perform much better on the M10R.

 

[Khun Hans]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

M lenses are ok on SL2, but not best performers for high megapixel.

this is the SL2 multishot with 21SEM. 1st is 47MP and 2nd is 187MP

https://photos.alexkroke.com/TESTS/Multi-shot/n-6BL8Lb/

 

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-gsJFGcZ/0/acc7b3dc/O/i-gsJFGcZ.jpg

Thanks. Probably the SL2 is better suited for the M lenses than the SL2s because of a different sensor? Your pictures both look quite ok to me. Would like to see them with a 50mm.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Khun Hans

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, Khun Hans said:

Again to be clear:

The picture shows a 100% crop of a 96 MB Multi shot exposure with a SL2s. Lens: Summilux 1,4/50mm.  This was my bad experience with Multi Shot.

Then I compared the original 24MP DNG file of the SL2s with the same lenses with the 40MP files out of the 10R and discovered  that all 3 lenses perform much better on the M10R.

 

The Summilux M 50 is a soft look lens wide open, probably looks better at f8

 

what did you use.

In any case the modern lenses have better resolution. 50 summicron APO or  Summicron-SL

[Khun Hans]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

The Summilux M 50 is a soft look lens wide open, probably looks better at f8

 

what did you use.

In any case the modern lenses have better resolution. 50 summicron APO or  Summicron-SL

I can use the Summilux at any stop on my M10-R (before on the M10 and  M240) and doesn't look soft to me. The APO lenses are sharper, resolution is similar and sure better bokeh and they don't get better stopped down.

I shot wide open, @ 2,8 probably, but for the comparison SL2s -M10R @ original file size 24MP-40MP I used the same stop.  The files of the M10-r are much nicer (clearer, sharper)

 And as you say M-Lenses (or my M-lenses) are no big performer in high MP , I'm surprised by your 187 MP file on the SL2. THat's why I estimate they perform better because of a different sensor on the SL2. 🙏

Edited June 3, 2021 by Khun Hans

[Photoworks]

M lenses will always look a little better on M cameras, the sensor is optimized for that sensor. 
I use the Noctilux often and there are character artifacts present at f5.6. I did some tests with few M and L 50's if you want to see it. the Sigma 45mm what is not the greatest lens did better then the L lenses on the SL2

Keep in mind that the summilux-M 50 has been out for many years.

 

[i-Leica]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Khun Hans:

??????

when you look at the standard DNG, which is always (!) made by the camera when you choose multishot, the quality is worse then the M10-R - The Leica is making two pictures: one 24MP and one multishot - thats why. Compare the right one with your M10-R.

[Paul2660]

From experience with the SL2, I have found that multi-shot is very dependent on a few considerations. Same should apply to the SL2-S 

1.  Manual focus, Make sure you have the best possible focus.  Normal resolution images from a SL2 or SL2-s, will give you a lot more leeway in regards to focus. However you are basically taking up a shot 2x in overall resolution and thus no slight amount of error in focus will really be allowed.  Everything shows up.  Take a look at the normal dng that is also captured, and use software like ACR's super resolution or Topaz Gigapixel.  See if the normal resolution DNG is much better after it's been up-rez'd to the same size.  NOTE, in Topaz Gigapixel pick 2x, ACR super resolution will be 2x also. You don't have any size choices with ACR. I have found many times that if I use peaking, I will miss the most critical point of focus, and instead tend to turn it off.  What I have found is the image in the EVF will tend to show a slight glowing effect (somewhat like aliasing), when the focus is best.  

2.  Find an aperture that gives you the best all round performance.  I would start in the F 5.6 range and stop by F11.  Any lens wide open will be much harder to get a full frame image sharp across the board. 

3.  Realize that these images (multi-shot) do require a considerable amount of sharpening.  Also consider your raw converter.  To their credit, Leica is doing an amazing job under the covers by processing all the 8 shots together into a single DNG.  

4.  Make sure you are focusing manually at 100% zoom or close, as the EVF in the SL2 is excellent, I assume the SL2-S uses the same EVF? 5 million pixels? 

So far I have been very impressed with what the SL2 can produce with a multi shot solution.  Wind can be tolerated to a small amount, but with much subject movement you will start to see considerable aliasing errors, the multi-shot mode with the movement correction will help some.  Still for the best resolution, this mode should be off whenever possible.  

Consider sharpening the output tif also, Topaz AI sharpener works very well.  I still use the version that had the "stabilize" selection for sharpening,  More recent versions have changed the names. 

Paul 

 

 

[Khun Hans]

11 hours ago, Photoworks said:

M lenses will always look a little better on M cameras, the sensor is optimized for that sensor. 
I use the Noctilux often and there are character artifacts present at f5.6. I did some tests with few M and L 50's if you want to see it. the Sigma 45mm what is not the greatest lens did better then the L lenses on the SL2

Keep in mind that the summilux-M 50 has been out for many years.

 

Thanks again. What I see is that the older manufactured M lenses are not perfect for the SL2s . If you don't mind please show me a M 50mm lens  picture  from the SL2.

9 hours ago, i-Leica said:

when you look at the standard DNG, which is always (!) made by the camera when you choose multishot, the quality is worse then the M10-R - The Leica is making two pictures: one 24MP and one multishot - thats why. Compare the right one with your M10-R.

I know that, of course. I expected that the picture from the SL2s  come out at least sharper and clearer. (the 24MP once ) Thanks

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Khun Hans

[Khun Hans]

4 hours ago, Paul2660 said:

From experience with the SL2, I have found that multi-shot is very dependent on a few considerations. Same should apply to the SL2-S 

1.  Manual focus, Make sure you have the best possible focus.  Normal resolution images from a SL2 or SL2-s, will give you a lot more leeway in regards to focus. However you are basically taking up a shot 2x in overall resolution and thus no slight amount of error in focus will really be allowed.  Everything shows up.  Take a look at the normal dng that is also captured, and use software like ACR's super resolution or Topaz Gigapixel.  See if the normal resolution DNG is much better after it's been up-rez'd to the same size.  NOTE, in Topaz Gigapixel pick 2x, ACR super resolution will be 2x also. You don't have any size choices with ACR. I have found many times that if I use peaking, I will miss the most critical point of focus, and instead tend to turn it off.  What I have found is the image in the EVF will tend to show a slight glowing effect (somewhat like aliasing), when the focus is best.  

2.  Find an aperture that gives you the best all round performance.  I would start in the F 5.6 range and stop by F11.  Any lens wide open will be much harder to get a full frame image sharp across the board. 

3.  Realize that these images (multi-shot) do require a considerable amount of sharpening.  Also consider your raw converter.  To their credit, Leica is doing an amazing job under the covers by processing all the 8 shots together into a single DNG.  

4.  Make sure you are focusing manually at 100% zoom or close, as the EVF in the SL2 is excellent, I assume the SL2-S uses the same EVF? 5 million pixels? 

So far I have been very impressed with what the SL2 can produce with a multi shot solution.  Wind can be tolerated to a small amount, but with much subject movement you will start to see considerable aliasing errors, the multi-shot mode with the movement correction will help some.  Still for the best resolution, this mode should be off whenever possible.  

Consider sharpening the output tif also, Topaz AI sharpener works very well.  I still use the version that had the "stabilize" selection for sharpening,  More recent versions have changed the names. 

Paul 

 

 

Thanks for the input Paul. Be assured that I know to focus test images. All images were taken at infinity on SL2S as well as on M10R, so no difficult shots.  I also know that with a smaller aperture I could achieve better quality. But I use Leica lenses to shoot wide open, therefore it should be possible on the SL2s as I can do with the M.

If I have to use different or more software to get good results with my M lenses on the SL2s...forget it.

You say you are impressed by multi shot solution on SL2. With M lenses and which one? Thanks for the advice 'movement correction'.

That all does not solve my problem. As an M shooter I bought the SL2s to use my M lenses, I have no L lens whatsoever. My M lenses don't perform to my satisfaction on the SL2s.

Should I try the SL2 instead or buy L lenses (that was not my intention) or drop the idea altogether ? 🙏

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, Khun Hans said:

Thanks again. What I see is that the older manufactured M lenses are not perfect for the SL2s . If you don't mind please show me a M 50mm lens  picture  from the SL2.

I know that, of course. I expected that the picture from the SL2s  come out at least sharper and clearer. (the 24MP once ) Thanks

 

 

https://photos.alexkroke.com/Review/50mm-Lenses-on-M10-R-and-LS2/n-WR5V2r/

on camera M10-R with Summilux Asph 50mm, Noctilux 0.95 50mm. From wide open to F4

On SL2, Summilux-M 50, Noctilux 50mm 0.95, Sigma 45mm, Summicron-SL 50

 

to compare is best download the images and view them 100%, you will notice a great image improvement in details on the SL lenses.

[Khun Hans]

5 hours ago, Khun Hans said:

Thanks for the input Paul. Be assured that I know to focus test images. All images were taken at infinity on SL2S as well as on M10R, so no difficult shots.  I also know that with a smaller aperture I could achieve better quality. But I use Leica lenses to shoot wide open, therefore it should be possible on the SL2s as I can do with the M.

If I have to use different or more software to get good results with my M lenses on the SL2s...forget it.

You say you are impressed by multi shot solution on SL2. With M lenses and which one? Thanks for the advice 'movement correction'.

That all does not solve my problem. As an M shooter I bought the SL2s to use my M lenses, I have no L lens whatsoever. My M lenses don't perform to my satisfaction on the SL2s.

Should I try the SL2 instead or buy L lenses (that was not my intention) or drop the idea altogether ? 🙏

As I did  the comparison with wide open aperture. I did another test stopped down to f5,6. Then the difference between M10-R and SL2s is practically no more visible.

But wide open M lenses are only usable on M cameras 

[Khun Hans]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

https://photos.alexkroke.com/Review/50mm-Lenses-on-M10-R-and-LS2/n-WR5V2r/

on camera M10-R with Summilux Asph 50mm, Noctilux 0.95 50mm. From wide open to F4

On SL2, Summilux-M 50, Noctilux 50mm 0.95, Sigma 45mm, Summicron-SL 50

 

to compare is best download the images and view them 100%, you will notice a great image improvement in details on the SL lenses.

Thanks a lot for the effort, Alex. Very kind.

Downloaded them to LR and compared them with my shots as well doing some more test shots.  Discovered the following:

- My shots wide open (f1,4 to f2) with the Summilux are not acceptable for me in the distance on the SL2s at infinity focussing.  Did some more shots at appox. the same distance as yours and the result is similar to yours. I suppose you started with f.2

- As all my comparison shots were wide open I stopped more test shots down to f5,6. That improved he result with the SL2s a lot.

- The SL lens shots are just amazingly detailed.  Even the Sigma's are really good.

That shows me that I cant use my M lenses on the SL2s wide open. Stopped down for i.e. landscape shooting is satisfying. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Khun Hans

[Paul2660]

Hi, I don't have any M lenses currently.  Currently I have the 24-90, and 90-280, by Leica and also use:

15mm Zeiss Milvus, (Nikon F)

Pentax 70mm F 1.4 

Nikon 19mm PC-E 

Nikon 20mm F 1.8. 

Hope to add some M lenses in the future. 

 

Paul 

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Hallo,

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[Christian Cummins]

I think that's it's worth noting, when shooting at infinity; this is true at least of the Leica branded L-M adapter, the photographer must back off slightly of the focus mark on the barrel to achieve infinity. This is hidden a few pages into the manual for the adapter. I missed this at first.