Tell me about the 35 Lux Pre-Asph V2 infinity lock version?

[skueh]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I always heard the this 35 Lux Pre-Asph V2 infinity version is better than the later version w/o the infinity lock. Mainly it is sharper than the later version at F1.4. To my unstanding, as quoted from James Larger book: "Leitz has not published information suggesting that the basic design of the 35m 1:1.4 Summilux (1960) has been altered."  As such, other than improvement on lens coating, both types should perform about the same on sharpness at F1.4.

For those of you who have using both of the type of lenses, is there any significant difference in sharpness at max. aperture?

Thanks.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Ernstk]

The 'design' of the Summilux was altered from  serial number 2166701  onwards. 3 of  the optical elements were replaced by exotic lanthanum glass.

There were infinity lock versions before and after this glass change, although the ones after it are quite rare. You would expect that Leitz Canada made this change to improve the optical performance.

Ernst

[skueh]

Thanks Ernst fro the insight.

Does this mean all the Summilux made in Canada after series number 2166701 had the 3 exotic lanthanum glass? 

S.Kueh

[Ernstk]

2 hours ago, skueh said:

Thanks Ernst fro the insight.

Does this mean all the Summilux made in Canada after series number 2166701 had the 3 exotic lanthanum glass? 

S.Kueh

Yes, it does.

Ernst

[Ernstk]

That was a useful post  @Steven thank you. Is your 216xxxx lens later than the 2166701 glass change?

Ernst

[Ernstk]

15 minutes ago, Steven said:

"Only #216 contained Steel Rim glass. Other is not."

I'm a bit confused by this. The glass in your 216xxxx is different to the steel rim glass.

Ernst

[pgk]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

15 hours ago, Ernstk said:

The 'design' of the Summilux was altered from  serial number 2166701  onwards. 3 of  the optical elements were replaced by exotic lanthanum glass.

There were infinity lock versions before and after this glass change, although the ones after it are quite rare. You would expect that Leitz Canada made this change to improve the optical performance.

To quote from a paper on this lens by Elcan lens designers: "Typical of older designs, the selected double Gauss lenses we have analysed contain obsolete glass. We have briefly reviewed the implications of manufacture with currently available glass types. Considering ..... the 35mm f/1.4 Summilux. LaF21 replaced three elements, marked as ‘LeT29’ in the original design, at some point. We have been unable to clearly identify the latter."

So the exact reason for the glass change is not precisely known. It may have been for any of a variety of reasons such as availability of glass types, or because of the requirement of new environmental regulations. Whether it changed the performance is not known and would require tests which as far as I have been able to discover have not been carried out. I would be very dubious about any significant performance difference based on the outcomes of the paper which states "It appears that this simple double Gauss form cannot give improved performance given the field and aperture constraints even with additional glass choices." As this is based on the later lens containing the LaF21, it would appear that at best the earlier glass type lenses could only be as good or that they may even have been inferior.

Edited June 2, 2021 by pgk

[skueh]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

Hello, 

Being a sucker for this little gem of a lens, I have made extensive research on this. My investigation consisted of the following: 

- Reading everything there is to read about this, on the forum and on the internet. For this reason, I am not surprised to learn that @Ernstk was the first to answer to this thread

- Talking a lot with collectors and dealers about this lens. You'd be surprised how much info you receive from dealers, especially in Asia. 

- Owning and trying as many of this lens. 

At this moment, I own two steel rims (early V1), and one early V2 infinity lock. I have tried many other on the way, including modified googles lenses that focus at 65cm, and I'm not finished trying! So here are a few facts from my findings: 

- According to the time they were made, they are all different! Some people will tell you that they tried several and they could not see a difference, but that's because you need to really pay attention to detail. They all have overall the same signature wide open, but they perform differently. 

- The three main differences I found between "generations" of this lens are in the way it glows, in the way it flares, and in the center sharpness. 

- My least favourite version of the lens, which of course will be other's favourite, is the late German ones. I tried a titanium and did not like it's rendering. The best, in my opinion, are the very early one, such as the steel rim. They are sharper in the center, have a very smooth glow, and don't look as "smudgy" as the later ones

- Difference don't only show between generations, but also between copies of the same batch, mainly in the form of a different flare. Some have a perfect circular rainbow flare which is very manageable artistically, but for others of the same batch, the flare is very messy. I've posted many examples and side by side in the past. 

Lastly, to go back to the infinity lock version, there are two types of infinity lock. Aluminium and brass. From my conversations with some asian dealers, which have been confirmed by another member of this forum who leaves in Japan and bought a Steel Rim recently, it is only the very early brass infinity lock version that is sharp like a V1. To me more precise, it is only the ones from batch 216 and 217. After this, something changed and the lens is just a V2. 
I have in my hands a 216, and I can confirm after trying it for a few days that it seems to be one of the best V2 I've ever tried. I don't see any difference with my V1. 

There is currently an infinity lock 222007 for sale at a European dealer, but he is not sure that the lock is made of brass. 

Hi Steven,

This is truly a great post. Beside sharpness, rendering is also a very important factor to consider, especially the smooth glow.. I read all your posts regarding your journey into the 35 lux wonderland, from steel rim to 35/2 APO to 35 lux AA. All are excellent posts. Please keep up all the good work. very much appreciated.

S.kueh

[luigi bertolotti]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

The best, in my opinion, are the very early one, such as the steel rim. They are sharper in the center, have a very smooth glow, and don't look as "smudgy" as the later ones

-

I agree, at least based on my two items (1.765.850 - chrome . 2.290.126 - black with infinity lock) , the only marginal plus of the later is some less vignetting.

Btw... I've often read about the "steel rim" version... what does it mean exactly ? A black version with front ring chrome ?

Edited June 2, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[Guest JMF]

11 hours ago, Steven said:

 

Steven,

thanks for sharing your extensive research .

I have never seen nor heard of the 217 batch before . Would love infos about this . 
 

Currently I have a 35 summilux v2 with an aluminum infinity lock with serial 22213xx

and a goggled 35 Summilux v2 with brass infinity lock and 22218xx serial number.

A mismatch in serial numbers from this era is not uncommon,  to make this all even more confusing !

Best

JM.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by JMF

[jaques]

@Steven I have one of these- mine is Canadian made- with infinity lock- serial number 2347683. What can you tell me about my lens? A penny for your thoughts.

 

I do love it- as much for the feel and heft of it as it's performance. I am a bit of a lens feel fetishist- and this one is a little jewel. Only minor quibble is aperture ring is a little hard to grab under the hood...

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

with oufro fitted:

[skueh]

Amazing images! Is the first one at max aperture?

[jaques]

thanks for the detailed run down- and yes mine has the silver aluminum part on the lock mechanism. I think I paid about $1200 us for it- so I am happy it's appreciating nicely. So far my Leica lenses have been a great investment- if I ever decide to sell any that is.

it's definitely a 2 in 1 lens. stopped down it isn't much different than my summcron 35 v1 (though that is razor sharp).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jaques]

2 hours ago, skueh said:

Amazing images! Is the first one at max aperture?

thanks- I believe that was wide open- can't recall though. The soft glow at the top suggests it would have been.

[jaques]

stopped down it's a different story:

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jaques]

Mine is a goggled  one- so maybe not quite so high. But it’s nearly mint- with original box. Soooo sharp even wide open- I love it. Always lusted after an ungoggled one but I’ll settle for what I have. I picked it up with a Leica m3... that camera had serial number 800001... I sold it for 8k usd to a Hong Kong collector. Pocketed a goodly profit and the summicron was free 😍

I made a good decision 12 years ago when I started collecting vintage Leica lenses. I’ve never bought a new one ☝🏽 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by jaques

[jaques]

I have a plethora of more common lenses- fat 90mm, 50 summicron v3, tele elmar...  rarer ones would be noctilux f1 and Tri-Elmar mate. Also have some nice but not super rare ltm lenses.  Also slr lenses. A favorite lens is 75mm biotar in exacta mount:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

 

[Kim Dahl]

11 hours ago, Steven said:

The wide open glow 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

What lovely pictures Steven.  I think I'm starting to understand that lens - without having tried - and now I would also like one…… 😂😬😁

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Danner]

14 hours ago, jaques said:

Mine is a goggled  one- so maybe not quite so high. But it’s nearly mint- with original box. Soooo sharp even wide open- I love it. Always lusted after an ungoggled one but I’ll settle for what I have. I picked it up with a Leica m3... that camera had serial number 800001... I sold it for 8k usd to a Hong Kong collector. Pocketed a goodly profit and the summicron was free 😍

I made a good decision 12 years ago when I started collecting vintage Leica lenses. I’ve never bought a new one ☝🏽 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

You made power lines look good.  Not easy to do.

[Beerclink]

[luigi bertolotti]

On 6/3/2021 at 7:19 AM, Steven said:

I think that your 176850 is a steel rim. The steel rim is the chrome version, and the very front ring is made of steel, thus it’s nickname. It’s now a collector item that trades for a very high price. If your steel rim if completely damaged, you might still be able to get 12k for it. If it’s very well kept, you can sell it for over 20k. If you have the OLLUX hood with it, it’s also a rare item that sells for around 1.5k on its own. 
One amazing advantage of the steel rim is that it can receive a 41mm filter without the need of a hood, like the v2. 
They also made the steel rim in black. But that’s even more rare, and you’ll have to spare over 40k today if you want to buy one. 

Thanks... I never noticed that the top ring was steel and not chrome brass (to my excuse... 😒it's normally covered by the hood.... it's almost mandatory for this lens)

I didn't know it is valued as a collectible... It's around 30 years I have this set... I bought at a shop as a "normal used" (iirc around 5-600 Euros , in Italian Liras of the era); the only occasion I did inspect was to verify the back mount, when the problem of mounting on digital M emerged (but no problem with my item)

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited June 4, 2021 by luigi bertolotti