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CL2 delayed.. anyone thought to buy an S5?


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2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

They both look bulky to me...that was kind of my point. But I agree with you about the 50mm...that is on the S1, however, not the S5, which is a quite a bit smaller.

That is the X100V vs the S5 with an APO Summicron and the CL with 35mm 1.4. I know it is not all apples to oranges, but the lens lineups are not 1 to 1 either. I just think that the CL with a lens like the 35mm 1.4 is not so compact as to make it worth using the smaller format. It does make sense with the 18mm and 23mm, but unfortunately those lenses are not really the best performing lenses on the L mount. The reason I put the X100V in there is to show a 35mm equivalent APSC camera that has comparable image quality, but in a much smaller package. The Ricoh GRIII would be another APSC, even smaller still, yet with a very sharp 28mm lens. I left it out though, as that one does not have an EVF.
 
I understanding that everyone has their own perspective, and I am not trying to take away from anyone who loves the CL. I just think that from my own standpoint, I wish Leica had better embraced the compact/high quality side more in the TL lenses, making truly small and truly high quality optics (meaning as sharp as the apo summicrons edge to edge, only smaller to fit the format), or, on the other hand, if they had just made it full frame to begin with more like the Q...have it be a smaller, stripped down and cheaper version of the SL line, kind of like the S5 is to the S1 and S1R. In any case, my view is clear, so I don't want to bog the thread down anymore with it. I hope everyone who loves the CL continues to do so, and they get a CL2 that does what they want!

According to Peter Karbe the TL series are the highest standard lenses Leica designed, due to the smaller format....

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10 minutes ago, jaapv said:

According to Peter Karbe the TL series are the highest standard lenses Leica designed, due to the smaller format....

Well clearly something happening in execution then...at least with the 23mm. Mine looked soft even on the 16mp T...not in a "this lens is broken" way, but in a "this is not a very good lens" way. I will see if I can post some pictures as to what I mean. I found that on the T, my M lenses were much better than the 23mm.

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If you can live with 2.8 and 3.5 apertures, the Sigmas are small and both lovely lenses, with the 24mm having the benefit of being a demi macro with a MFD of 10,8cm

And with the S5 incredible high iso performances + IBIS, you don't need 1.4 except for bokeh

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To go back to the question from the OP.  The Panasonic S5 is a very attractive platform in itself.  Larger than the CL but in between that and the SL2 which is a massive jump in size and weight.  I would be tempted to consider it, on the grounds of its modest size, if there were some examples of it working well with Leica SL lenses like the Summicron range.

I have loved my CL and still do, but the range of quality lenses is very limited and development appears to have stopped. 

Looking back over my last few years of photos with the CL, I don't feel on balance that they are as good as photos taken with my M lenses before that.  I would be prepared to go back to full frame if the weight penalty were not too severe, in order to have access to a wider range of top lenses.

I would go back to the M system if my eyesight were good enough to manually focus but alas! that is not going to happen.

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I agree that the Summilux-TL 35 is large for a standard FL prime on a body the size of the CL. I knew that when I bought it, but having tried someone else's, I was willing to accept the penalty for the extra aperture and the image quality. I even had to upgrade my 1-camera-1-lens bag from the Fogg Flute to the Fogg Soprano!

I did have the 23mm but was never quite as keen on it as I am on the 35, even though I have always been as happy with 35mm-equivalent as with 50mm. I didn't spend much time investigating what I found less than satisfying - I traded it in for something else. The lenses I use most on the CL are the 35mm, 11-23mm and 60mm, in that order, and I find them all excellent. The 18-56 is much less used. 

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Man, I feel like I have to stick up for the much maligned 23mm.  I respectfully disagree with the common assumption that the 11-23 is somehow orders of magnitude better.  Now, that said, I think the 23 has a steeper learning curve than the other lenses. I got the 11-23 for XMAS and put away the 11-23 for a while to come back to it recently.  I find portraits shot with this lens have much more "pop" than the 11-23 (I know it's not a portrait lens, but you use what you have).  I also like it for street and even like the landscape rendering and find it to be more "Leicaesque" than the 11-23.

Maybe I got an exceptionally good copy of the lens, but recently it's winning the what lens do I take game unless there's a specific need for low light or zoom.  I actually shudder that I contemplated selling it!

And man the Macfilos article sure did put a wet blanket on my CL upgrade hopes, maybe time to get a Q2.  .  . 

https://www.macfilos.com/2021/05/25/leica-cl-the-future-for-the-aps-c-system/

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I think if you have the 11-23 and the 23 then you have already “married” the TL lens system. Unless you find the CL lacking in some way that prevents you from taking the shots you want, then I would suggest riding it out until the CL2 is announced. I don’t think it’s clear when this model might be launched for a whole host of reasons, but if you think about the L-Alliance it doesn’t make sense to abandon the APSC format. Leica are unlikely to launch another full frame camera, and even if they did where would it fit? How would they price it?

What might make more sense is to buy a preowned CL, TL2 or TL body so you have a spare or can switch back and forth between lenses without getting dust on the sensor.

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43 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

I think if you have the 11-23 and the 23 then you have already “married” the TL lens system. Unless you find the CL lacking in some way that prevents you from taking the shots you want, then I would suggest riding it out until the CL2 is announced. I don’t think it’s clear when this model might be launched for a whole host of reasons, but if you think about the L-Alliance it doesn’t make sense to abandon the APSC format. Leica are unlikely to launch another full frame camera, and even if they did where would it fit? How would they price it?

What might make more sense is to buy a preowned CL, TL2 or TL body so you have a spare or can switch back and forth between lenses without getting dust on the sensor.

Yah, that ain;t the half of it, I have the 35,55-135 and got the kit with the 18.  I am in deep!

That said, I live near the ocean in San Diego and am pretty conservative when shooting near the water.  The Q2's weather sealing has a ton of appeal.

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I have a S5, but not because of a “delay” on the CL2. I like my CL and it does what it does very well. 
I bought the S5 to have a larger body for zoom lenses, namely the Lumix 16-35 and now the Sigma 28-70/2.8.  I’ve never been much of a zoom user, but I’m trying to learn to love them. I quite like the 16-35. 
 

I see the CL as my “rangefinder” sized body, and am currently using the Elmarit 18 and the Sigma 35/2 with it. Both very good lenses with a decent size and weight.  I may try out the Lumix 24/1.8, whenever that shows up (maybe after the CL2?). I wasn’t fond of the Summicron-T 23 at all. 

The S5 is more my “SLR” camera, I can use bigger lenses in it because of the improved grip, and the IBIS is nice. It also seems to play well with my M lenses, too. 
 

Good times. 

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3 hours ago, SoCalLeicanator said:

Yah, that ain;t the half of it, I have the 35,55-135 and got the kit with the 18.  I am in deep!

That said, I live near the ocean in San Diego and am pretty conservative when shooting near the water.  The Q2's weather sealing has a ton of appeal.

So if you bought a Q2 and then the CL2 came out what would you do?

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6 hours ago, SoCalLeicanator said:

.... I live near the ocean in San Diego and am pretty conservative when shooting near the water.  The Q2's weather sealing has a ton of appeal.

The Leica Q or Q2 should be considered as alternative cameras to work alongside your CL system. They should not be considered as mutually exclusive.

I also consider the much-maligned 23 mm Summicron to be a superb Leica lens.

Some people seem to forget that the APS-C format is smaller than full-frame 35 mm, typified by the Leica M-system. ('A good big'un will usually out-perform a good little-un') Some photographers mistakenly try and treat them as equals and rivals, which they were never designed to be. The Unique Selling Point of the CL (and TL) systems is their smaller size and weight. Neither the M nor S-systems can compete when judging those criteria. So, think of the choice as 'horses for courses' and continue to enjoy your superb CLs and stop treating them as inferior cameras. If Leica has faith in its products, we might see an improved version one day, but that would not render the current model as worthless. Enjoy your CL, for what it is and what it can achieve.

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2 hours ago, Le Chef said:

So if you bought a Q2 and then the CL2 came out what would you do?

I would not upgrade and would keep the original CL.  Don't get me wrong, the CL is great and even without the upgrade IMO is more appealing than any of the APS-Cs.  I think the current model has quite a few years in it.

I just have a hankering for a Leica full frame and a weather sealed full frame, fixed lens, stabilized Leica, not to mention potential bankruptcy from lenses that would come from an SL-2 (too bulky for me anyways).  I am sure I am not the only one to have the seen the math photographer's YouTube and wondered how one human being could have amassed that sheer quantity of optics and maintained solvency.

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13 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

If you can live with 2.8 and 3.5 apertures, the Sigmas are small and both lovely lenses, with the 24mm having the benefit of being a demi macro with a MFD of 10,8cm

And with the S5 incredible high iso performances + IBIS, you don't need 1.4 except for bokeh

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Hum hum. S5 is just ugly as hell. And still very very big. 
But why not. If you are into it. 
Let’s talk about Panasonic + Sigma stuff on L-mount forum. 
This particular combo is not a competitor to the CL which is still way smaller and lighter. No matter the way you look at it. I will never exchange my tiny CL for a big S5. 
 

And Sigma lenses are ok. But not Leica level. You get what you pay for. 
By the way Sigma DC DN f/1.4 16mm, 30mm and 56mm are certainly better candidate for small and mighty lenses. Faster than DG DN contemporary i series lenses. 

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9 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Hum hum. S5 is just ugly as hell. And still very very big. 
But why not. If you are into it. 
Let’s talk about Panasonic + Sigma stuff on L-mount forum. 
This particular combo is not a competitor to the CL which is still way smaller and lighter. No matter the way you look at it. I will never exchange my tiny CL for a big S5. 
 

And Sigma lenses are ok. But not Leica level. You get what you pay for. 
By the way Sigma DC DN f/1.4 16mm, 30mm and 56mm are certainly better candidate for small and mighty lenses. Faster than DG DN contemporary i series lenses. 

I don't consider the S5 ugly, it's the same as any other mirrorless on the market. It has quite a few advantages over the CL though, like a 360° flippy screen, weather sealing, IBIS. 

I also disagree on Sigma lenses. Should Leica release a 24mm SL APO, I'd not buy it and keep the Sigma 24mm instead. It's a terrific lens, very sharp wide open, has a great rendering, all metal construction, a magnetic lens cap, aperture ring. To me it looks the best among the recent Sigma i series. The 45mm is right behind, wide open it's perfect for portraits and has a very distinctive rendering. Character rather than clinically sharp. It's Leica that should have a look at Sigma instead of releasing the monstrous SL lenses. And, in fact, they did... 

But you're right, if size is your main concern and you want to stay in the L mount, the CL is your only option. Compromises. 

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I have too many cameras at the moment...and one of them is a CL (along with a Q2, TL2, and mp240).  I had and sold a panasonic S1.  Great files, but it was so heavy (had the 50mm lens too), it often stayed at home.

 

The CL is a great camera.  I personally love it and find it remarkable that so many folks are itching to upgrade.  It's incredibly user-friendly and the files are excellent. While not full frame, it would be hard to tell the difference in all but the most demanding situations. It also renders well with my m-mount lenses.  Better AF would be nice (and low light AF in particular)...but none of that is a deal breaker for me.  The CL also works nicely with the el-cheapo Sigma trio (16mm, 30mm, and 56mm).  

 

S5 is tempting, but for me, not small enough to be super tempting.  Add on some of those honking lenses and the proposition becomes yet harder. If I were shooting weddings, though, I'd certainly consider it.

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Just a concrete exemple of APS-C superiority in long focal range. 
1190g vs 1850g 
 

CL + Lumix S 70-300 weighs almost as much as Sigma 100-400mm DG DN alone. While giving a longer reach with around the same aperture opening. 
105-450mm f/4.5-5.6 vs 100-400mm f/5-6.3

Lumix S5 alone weighs almost as much as Lumix S 70-300 alone. 
 

Buy APS-C for compactness and for telephoto. 
Buy 24x36 for ultra wide angle and for ultra wide aperture f/0.95 to f/1.2

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in regards of OPs question - no, I am not interested in S5 to replace CL. I have a SL2 if I want to shoot full frame. And CL still works so good that I am not in a hurry for a CL2. S5 is a FF medium sized camera. CL is a copycat DX-sensor camera - quite different IMO.

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