CL2 delayed.. anyone thought to buy an S5?

[jaapv]

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It will be interesting to see whether Leica manages to navigate the shortage of high-efficiency chips, which is expected to last quite a few years and will only increase.

[amd]

25 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'm sure you're right - it would take more processing power to improve the CL's AF performance. It is a race between higher demands on the battery (for processing power, better EVF etc), more energy-efficient processors and improved battery capacity (in the same size) and heat dissipation. The CL is already at the low end of satisfactory battery consumption, and I would not want to see it get bigger just to hold a physically bigger battery.

In answer to your last question: no! I think there will always be a trade-off between body and sensor size on the one hand, and battery capacity/size, processor size and heat dissipation requirements on the other.

Thank you for your answer and evaluation!

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[nicci78]

Actually there are enough chips for everybody. 
It is just like toilet paper. They got into panic mode and everybody starts hoarding lots of chips. Just in case. 
So foundries are flooded by orders. Because everybody is ordering more than necessary. 
 

Just wait for the panic to settle down. We will see the contrary : the market flooded with chips that nobody needed in the first place. 
 

Once again the toilet paper syndrome hits us again and again. 

[Marac]

Customer - Cod & Chips twice please

Shopkeeper - I heard you the first time.

[ruskkyle]

11 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Just from my perspective, I cannot see a reason to get the CL over the S5, unless absolute compactness and portability are the main goals. As an all around camera, the S5 is just better...

I think this is a bit harsh on the poor old CL. A big factor for me is the lenses. Specifically the 35 TL which is just an absolute razor blade. None of the 50s from Sigma or Panasonic will get you this Summilux performance and rendering. You could mount a 50 Lux M but you lose functionality.

[Simone_DF]

52 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

I think this is a bit harsh on the poor old CL. A big factor for me is the lenses. Specifically the 35 TL which is just an absolute razor blade. None of the 50s from Sigma or Panasonic will get you this Summilux performance and rendering. You could mount a 50 Lux M but you lose functionality.

Sigma lenses are so bad that Leica just rebadged one. 

The Panasonic S Pro has the same performance level of the SL Summilux and faster AF at half the price. It's also a big and heavy brick though. 

And you also forgot to mention Leica's own APO Summicrons.

[Stuart Richardson]

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Sorry...I don't really get it. The 35mm TL is a large, heavy and expensive lens...the Panasonic 50mm S Pro 1.4 is certified by Leica and has a very similar rendering and performance to the 50mm Summliux SL. The lens is cheaper than the 35mm TL.

Meanwhile, you could use the summicrons, or if AF is not critical, you can use an M lens...even lenses like the less expensive and very high performing new Voigtlander lenses.

I think the real problem here is that Leica did not do a good enough job making the CL lenses attractive. The two compact lenses (18 and 23) are not up to Leica level performance (at least in my experience), and the truly good lenses are bulky and expensive enough to make it worthwhile just to use a full frame body. I think they missed what was great about the original CL, which was that it had its own very high quality 40mm F2 and it took every normal M lens with full quality. The current CL is less compelling in my mind. I understand why some people like it, I just feel like it could have been so much better if they had made it more like an interchangeable lens Q, but I guess that would cut too much into SL and M sales.

[ruskkyle]

@Simone_DF @Stuart Richardson - Firstly I obviously did not say Sigma lenses are bad. Amazing how often I have to point out what I haven’t said on here.

But the S Pro 50 you both cite - and the 50 Lux SL - are enormous. The CL rig may be beefy but the S5 rig would be much beefier.

As for Leica’s overall success or lock thereof in marketing the system, I can’t disagree. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Fair enough. I just can't really see the use case as well for the CL. If compactness is a priority and sensor size is not important, then cameras like the Ricoh GR and Fuji X100V do that better with excellent integrated lenses, and if flexibility and image quality are more important, it seems like there are a number of full frame cameras that offer better features and value than the CL. Hopefully Leica's answer with the CL2 will make it really compelling, and that they can introduce it with a very high quality compact TL prime.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Sorry...I don't really get it. The 35mm TL is a large, heavy and expensive lens...the Panasonic 50mm S Pro 1.4 is certified by Leica and has a very similar rendering and performance to the 50mm Summliux SL. The lens is cheaper than the 35mm TL.

.........

Large, heavy & expensive? As you wrote earlier, that is from your perspective. From mine, it is small, light and cheap. As we photographers know, perspective is all about where you are standing🙂.

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Fair enough. I just can't really see the use case as well for the CL. If compactness is a priority and sensor size is not important, then cameras like the Ricoh GR and Fuji X100V do that better with excellent integrated lenses, and if flexibility and image quality are more important, it seems like there are a number of full frame cameras that offer better features and value than the CL. Hopefully Leica's answer with the CL2 will make it really compelling, and that they can introduce it with a very high quality compact TL prime.

Have I missed something (it's always possible in a thread that has had so many offshoots)? Neither the Ricoh nor Fuji X100V are comparable to the CL unless you want a fixed focus lens. 

[Michael Markey]

I use a CL with 23 /35 /60 and 55 -135 lenses.

I also use my 50 Summicron V5  ,28 Elmarit ,50 ZMC Sonnar and 90 Elmarit with the CL.

In addition to all that I use an  SL2S with all those lenses plus a Panasonic 70 -200 /4 .

Must be easily pleased because I couldn`t be happier with their performance on both bodies.

I shoot mostly equestrian stuff these days and both the CL and Sl2s keep up with 90% of it.

Ok , neither the CL or SL2S are up to Sony standards as far as AF is concerned and I admit that I do miss the Sony hit rate but there are other compensations .

 

[Herr Barnack]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:39 AM, jaapv said:

How can it be delayed when nobody knows the introduction date? 

Substitute "wish for" in place of "introduction" and we're on the right track.

[nicci78]

20 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Sorry...I don't really get it. The 35mm TL is a large, heavy and expensive lens...the Panasonic 50mm S Pro 1.4 is certified by Leica and has a very similar rendering and performance to the 50mm Summliux SL. The lens is cheaper than the 35mm TL.

Are you talking about this behemoth of a lens ? 
It really has nothing in common to mighty and tiny Summilux-TL 35mm. 
830g (CL + 35mm f/1,4)   
vs 1670g (S5 + 50mm f/1.4)

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[jaapv]

You are right, Niccy   The size of the lens makes it nearly useless for the main purpose of a 35 mm lens, which is a carry-around general purpose one. Even the TL lens is on the large side for my taste. 

[nicci78]

We can say whatever we want. 
But one thing will be true forever : APS-C is a half size sensor and it will always be at least half the size, half the weight and half the price of 24x36 bodies and lenses.
 

[nicci78]

However Panasonic reboot of its L-mount line up is really good in term of size and value. 
And S5 24MP sensor is awesome (similar to SL2-S one)
 

You can do everything (photos and videos) with a S5 and those Lumix S : 
- 20-60mm f/3.5-5.6
- your choice of f/1.8 lenses : 24mm, 35mm, 50mm or 85mm. 
- 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 OIS macro

You can skip the huge S Pro certified by Leica optics. 
 

S 24-105mm f/4 OIS macro is not bad too. 
 

All those Lumix S are not SL lenses nor Sigma DG DN quality though. 

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Edited June 2, 2021 by nicci78

[Stuart Richardson]

5 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Are you talking about this behemoth of a lens ? 
It really has nothing in common to mighty and tiny Summilux-TL 35mm. 
830g (CL + 35mm f/1,4)   
vs 1670g (S5 + 50mm f/1.4)

 

They both look bulky to me...that was kind of my point. But I agree with you about the 50mm...that is on the S1, however, not the S5, which is a quite a bit smaller.

https://j.mp/3yWp0Oo

That is the X100V vs the S5 with an APO Summicron and the CL with 35mm 1.4. I know it is not all apples to oranges, but the lens lineups are not 1 to 1 either. I just think that the CL with a lens like the 35mm 1.4 is not so compact as to make it worth using the smaller format. It does make sense with the 18mm and 23mm, but unfortunately those lenses are not really the best performing lenses on the L mount. The reason I put the X100V in there is to show a 35mm equivalent APSC camera that has comparable image quality, but in a much smaller package. The Ricoh GRIII would be another APSC, even smaller still, yet with a very sharp 28mm lens. I left it out though, as that one does not have an EVF.

 

I understanding that everyone has their own perspective, and I am not trying to take away from anyone who loves the CL. I just think that from my own standpoint, I wish Leica had better embraced the compact/high quality side more in the TL lenses, making truly small and truly high quality optics (meaning as sharp as the apo summicrons edge to edge, only smaller to fit the format), or, on the other hand, if they had just made it full frame to begin with more like the Q...have it be a smaller, stripped down and cheaper version of the SL line, kind of like the S5 is to the S1 and S1R. In any case, my view is clear, so I don't want to bog the thread down anymore with it. I hope everyone who loves the CL continues to do so, and they get a CL2 that does what they want!

[Herr Barnack]

6 hours ago, nicci78 said:

We can say whatever we want. 
But one thing will be true forever : APS-C is a half size sensor and it will always be at least half the size, half the weight and half the price of 24x36 bodies and lenses.
 

The Q2 is small and light enough for me to be my carry everywhere camera, even though the CL is smaller and lighter, particularly when paired with the 18mm f/2.8 Elmarit. 

Nonetheless, I remain a Q2 adherent; the sensor and the lens are what keep me hooked.  Carrying the Q2's extra 8.3 oz. is no burden at all, considering the srrengths that comes with it.

As for the original question, "anyone thought to buy an S5?" I can only say this:  I could not possibly be less interested in anything that PanaSony has to offer.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[FrozenInTime]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

They both look bulky to me...that was kind of my point. But I agree with you about the 50mm...that is on the S1, however, not the S5, which is a quite a bit smaller......

I understanding that everyone has their own perspective, and I am not trying to take away from anyone who loves the CL. I just think that from my own standpoint, I wish Leica had better embraced the compact/high quality side more in the TL lenses, making truly small and truly high quality optics 

It would seem both Sony and Nikon have awoken to this desire for compactness with 28 and 40mm lenses.

I was almost temped by the S5 , but jumped for the  SL2-S for it's better M-mount lenses compatibility ;

No current L-mount full frame lenses appeal to me. On the TL/CL, the 23mm was an early disappointment but I've stuck with 18,18-56 and 35 Summilux TL plus 28mm Summicron M.

The L sigma C lenses are sort of getting there, but quality compact Summicrons  - 28mm for TL and 40mm for SL mount would be ideal for me.

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[wjdrijfhout]

Any chance a CL2 might be accompanied by a TL3?